DaemonForums  

Go Back   DaemonForums > OpenBSD > OpenBSD General

OpenBSD General Other questions regarding OpenBSD which do not fit in any of the categories below.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   (View Single Post)  
Old 18th July 2012
barti barti is offline
Shell Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 122
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Is openbsd really not so good in performance ?

Quote:
Why did you even change the file system?
We wanted to make a better use of buffering. Computers today have immense quantity of unused memory. This new software almost works, we still have some minor bugs to fix, but the results so far are incredible. On computers with 16GB of RAM we can dedicate as much as 13 GB to buffering and almost no data is read from the hard drive, everything is in the RAM. It performs even faster than SSDs. We only have to write to the disk anymore and that’s mainly for reliability reasons. I estimate we’re a year away from the whole thing working flawlessly. From this aspect the 6 month release cycle is a bit limiting.




Taken from here:

http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=a...20111018061633


I always here that freebsd is about performance and openbsd is about security.


-
Reply With Quote
  #2   (View Single Post)  
Old 18th July 2012
ocicat ocicat is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,873
Thanked 190 Times in 160 Posts
Default

The myriad of decisions made in development constantly juggles a number of conflicting needs, goals, desires, wants, & reality. Of greater importance is stability, & the fact that the OpenBSD project is small -- meaning that there aren't enough resources to focus on every issue at all times.

Do other *BSD's perform better at specific tasks? Some do.

Is this important? For most people & tasks, no.
Reply With Quote
  #3   (View Single Post)  
Old 18th July 2012
barti barti is offline
Shell Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 122
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default People have to choose between performance and security

It was maybe serious question 10-15 years ago, when we had pentium 166mmx, and small amount of memory.

But today, instead of paying 50-100 dollars to the vps/dedicated server, just pay 150 and get openbsd.


I mean, I can compensate the performance with more dollars but can you do it with security? NO


Get a group of experts to develop a secure operating system for you,
because in 2012 the net is so much crowded with hackers.




The security of openbsd is much more then just 100 dollars.
Not even 10,000 dollars.


In 2000 performance is expensive but security is cheap.
In 2012 performance is cheap but security is expensive.




What do you think?

Last edited by barti; 19th July 2012 at 09:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4   (View Single Post)  
Old 19th July 2012
IdOp's Avatar
IdOp IdOp is offline
Too dumb for a smartphone
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: twisting on the daemon's fork(2)
Posts: 552
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default

The trouble with taking OS performance to the Nth degree is that it can lead to unclean design, and lack of portability, in that the upper layers of software have to get too close to the hardware. Pick your poison I guess.
Reply With Quote
  #5   (View Single Post)  
Old 19th July 2012
barti barti is offline
Shell Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 122
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I see it big issue for people to decide between openbsd and freebsd.

The big idea is that they don't know the real story behind the scenes.
Only developers can decide which to choose from.
Reply With Quote
  #6   (View Single Post)  
Old 19th July 2012
thirdm thirdm is offline
Package Pilot
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 195
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barti View Post
I see it big issue for people to decide between openbsd and freebsd.

The big idea is that they don't know the real story behind the scenes.
Only developers can decide which to choose from.
There's one way to choose easily without reading code. Use hardware that only one or the other supports. Using fairly new laptops with wireless cards are a good way of removing your extraneous choices. The secret is to pick something that doesn't remove all your choices.

Or you can go the other way and use really old non-x86/amd64 hardware. I suggest you pick up a VAX. Now your decision becomes very easy.
Reply With Quote
  #7   (View Single Post)  
Old 19th July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Hi barti !
When I first came to learn about the BSDs , I learnt 3 'labels' :

OpenBSD : Security
NetBSD : Portability
FreeBSD : Usability

This was not adequate as far as I -a user- am concerned
Portability : both OpenBSD and NetBSD are portable to powerpc hardware but for my case OpenBSD was more successfully so ( easy install , working rum0, working X, etc) (maybe I'm not mistaken to think of portability as lame when not combined with ease)
Security : all of them are secure and security-focused .. with slight differences with OpenBSD as king.
Usability : What is it really ?
if it means desktop experience : OpenBSD+Gnome or Kde reaches the same usability summit of PcBSD .. why bother ?
if it means speed/responsiveness : it's rocking fast
if it means lots of software : it has enough for me and zen choice works (eg. graphics : gimp and inkscape are enough for me .. for html pages , august and bluefish , Libreoffice for ) I did't miss a particular matter-of-life-or-death software.
barti , what do YOU want ?
I used PcBSD last year .. it was an easy big N slow Kde4 , so bloated.that wasn't the usability I wanted.PBIs make it worse.
All in all, It's only you who can know what suits your needs.
As ocicat told you (concerning window managers) : why not try some yourself and discover most suitable? same applies to OS choice.If I were in your shoes, I'd keep my newly hacked OpenBSD desktop .. and install FreeBSD on another disk or use a FreeBSD-based livecd (PcBSD may be used as a live , freesbie .. although live cds partially fail to show real performance) .. yet the real challenge for us newbies is :
How to install the new OS + how to get X (desktop) working + software management
If we start before gathering enough information from official websites , we get lost halfway or after first reboot (lol)
(it happened to me when trying NetBSD eventhough the official guides are so great :-) )
So take your time to try & decide :-)
Reply With Quote
  #8   (View Single Post)  
Old 20th July 2012
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,052
Thanked 118 Times in 93 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonfowl View Post

Usability : What is it really ?
if it means desktop experience : OpenBSD+Gnome or Kde reaches the same usability summit of PcBSD .. why bother ?
Do You have these on OpenBSD:
- Flash support? (on FreeBSD You can use COMPAT_LINUX for that)
- VirtualBox or any valuable alternative? (QEMU is dead slow)
- Boot Environments or anything comparable? (sysutils/beadm)
- Opera? (does it work using Linux compatibility layer on OpenBSD?)
- Nvidia drivers? (there are none for OpenBSD as I know, this is blob but still provides acceleration)
- Graphical Sound Configurator (PCBSD ONLY)
- Graphical Jail Management (PCBSD ONLY) - if I recall there are no such thins like Jails on OpenBSD
- Graphical Network Manager (PCBSD ONLY)

If we compare 'Your' desktop experience, then even MINIX3 with some DE is usable ...

What OpenBSD can offer besides not having these?

Quote:
if it means speed/responsiveness : it's rocking fast
It probably means responsiveness under high load.

Quote:
I used PcBSD last year .. it was an easy big N slow Kde4 , so bloated.that wasn't the usability I wanted.PBIs make it worse.
PCBSD from version 9 comes with GNOME2, KDE4, LXDE and XFCE as a choice, its not longer tied to KDE4, the tools and configurators are QT4 based and work the same in all DE's, You can even customize its look with misc/qt4-qtconfig utility.

Quote:
So take your time to try & decide :-)
It would be best to try to configure the same 'requirements' on all of them and then decide.
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
  #9   (View Single Post)  
Old 20th July 2012
barti barti is offline
Shell Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 122
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Do You have these on OpenBSD:
- Flash support? (on FreeBSD You can use COMPAT_LINUX for that)
- VirtualBox or any valuable alternative? (QEMU is dead slow)
- Boot Environments or anything comparable? (sysutils/beadm)
- Opera? (does it work using Linux compatibility layer on OpenBSD?)
- Nvidia drivers? (there are none for OpenBSD as I know, this is blob but still provides acceleration)
- Graphical Sound Configurator (PCBSD ONLY)
- Graphical Jail Management (PCBSD ONLY) - if I recall there are no such thins like Jails on OpenBSD
- Graphical Network Manager (PCBSD ONLY)


I want fast and secure server, not a gaming zone !




It is not about the user experience, it is about the CODE QUALITY that matters.

Only developers can decide.

Last edited by barti; 30th September 2012 at 09:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2012
backrow backrow is offline
Real Name: Anthony J. Bentley
Shell Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 116
Thanked 10 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
Do You have these on OpenBSD:
- Flash support? (on FreeBSD You can use COMPAT_LINUX for that)

- Opera? (does it work using Linux compatibility layer on OpenBSD?)
- Nvidia drivers? (there are none for OpenBSD as I know, this is blob but still provides acceleration)
OpenBSD has both a policy and a culture against blobs. Blobs conflict with at least two of OpenBSD’s goals: security auditing and portability. Why would I want software that can only be debugged by a single vendor?

There are even decent alternatives for all of these three. Many videos can be downloaded with cclive and get_flash_videos. Firefox and Chrome are both available. Well, maybe there’s no performant alternative to Nvidia drivers… but I don’t buy hardware from them precisely because their specs, docs, and drivers are all wholly proprietary. AMD and Intel both have decent open‐source drivers, and as a result they get my money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
- Graphical Sound Configurator (PCBSD ONLY)
- Graphical Jail Management (PCBSD ONLY) - if I recall there are no such thins like Jails on OpenBSD
- Graphical Network Manager (PCBSD ONLY)
I’m not convinced that making something “graphical” is what makes it a desktop program. It makes it easier for Grandma, maybe—but why would she be configuring jails or IP addresses? And if we’re talking about people like you or me, I would prefer to do this from the command line, where I can pipe or sed or vi or whatever else I’m used to. And no, I don’t type “mixerctl -f /dev/mixer1 outputs.spkr=+8” to increase the volume—I press the volume key on my keyboard.

Yes, we do seem to have different definitions of a “desktop system.” Is this OpenBSD fanboyism on my part? Hopefully not—I mean, I like NetSurf for web browsing and mupdf for PDF viewing, neither of which are part of base OpenBSD. I just think that smaller is better (i.e., as an aspiration, it’s more sustainable, even if it doesn’t provide all features that bigger programs provide).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
What OpenBSD can offer besides not having these?
Well, for one, its culture doesn’t include things like the above that I disagree with. Here are some of the things that OpenBSD provides me:
  • A base system that is small but complete (even providing X out of the box).
  • Ports to compensate for what’s not in base.
  • A focus on packages, not just ports! The OpenBSD culture discourages twisting knobs (compile options, etc.), and this means I am less likely to hit a problem nobody’s seen before. Plus packages mean I don’t have to wait longer (larger file download, combined with compilation times).
  • Security options that help program debugging, which I’ve mentioned elsewhere on the board.
  • The anti‐blob sentiment I mentioned above.

Just because I like OpenBSD doesn’t mean that I dislike other BSDs. I eagerly salivate over stuff like FreeBSD’s work on LLVM and jails, or Dragonfly’s HAMMER and multicore support. Likewise, OpenBSD provides OpenSSH and pf to others. I would rather we worked on what we have in common rather than sniping over desktop choices. People have this strange desire to use Unity or Gnome 3, which I don’t understand—I just accept it, in hopes that they’ll accept my desktop choices in return.
__________________
Many thanks to the forum regulars who put time and effort into helping others solve their problems.
Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Hi vermaden ! I avoid adobe flash because it's been a security risk .. I use gnash+firefox .. and youtube-dl to download flash .. months ago , I fell in love with minitube :-) As for emulation , I pragmatically believe that a better way is using live cds/usbs , or simply dual-booting. As for Opera , I always use it on OpenBSD (despite it's being a closed source) .. its compilation is quite easy and fast .. (fedora_base , groff etc ) .. Nvidia : I have GeForce on Acer Aspire but really never bothered its existence .. I never go gaming ..OpenBSD doesn't claim being a gaming platform eventhough it does provide emulators like stella/mednafen/dosbox/zsnes .... and pop games PcBSD can't be a Linux-Killer as far as gaming is concerned .. it is as a matter fact a beginner's gateway toward BSD World .. other challenging gateways are on the way. Graphical utilities : what's the use having them while CLI works ? don't they threaten a user to learning about his OS internals etc ? and the PBI-way as graphical bundling too , doesn't it contradict UNIX & BSD philosophy? ( I'm asking to show that PcBSD dosn't do something OpenBSD cannot but simply doesn't consider doing because philosophies and thus concerns differ ) you mentioned graphical network management : I've never found as easier as OpenBSD's method : ifconfig/hostname.infterface0/netstart .. PcBSD doesn't help the user as learner .. and when it seems to do so : then it would be autokilling : that is : dropping PBIs for ports and dropping Graphical utils for CLI tweaks .. a waste. we forget sometimes that some 'OpenBSD's missing features' are due to the small Project Team , so focus is on priorities .. whereas some are developpers security-decisions OpenBSD really "makes me feel good" as newbie and am sure it will make me feel better as I advance in learning :-) & Respect to all BSDs.
Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Just because I like OpenBSD doesn’t mean that I dislike other BSDs
Thanks @backrow ! well said.

Flash : there is also gecko-mediaplayer as package .. and there are helper firefox-addons like flashvideoreplacer .. or you can change quality to make it run fast.
Quote:
I don’t type “mixerctl -f /dev/mixer1 outputs.spkr=+8”
There is a lovely small package: xmix :-) .. left click increases volume and right click opposite.How I like tiny packages with few dependencies ; they are more enjoyable. eg : xv (and it can set your wallpaper just like xsetroot or fbsetbg)
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,052
Thanked 118 Times in 93 Posts
Default

@daemonfowl
@backrow

As I mentioned things that I will miss on OpenBSD after a migration from FreeBSD, there are several things about OpenBSD that I miss in FreeBSD ...

- OpenBSD's focus on implementing proper and *working* suspend/resume [1]
- OpenBSD's developers attitude, while OpenBSD developers actually use OpenBSD for their laptops/workstations and so, FreeBSD developers tend to use Macs/Macbooks for their workplace instead of FreeBSD and that is quite hypocrisy I must say :/
- OpenBSD team ported/implemented GEM/KMS a lot faster then FreeBSD team
- OpenBSD work on wireless drivers is impressive
- OpenBSD's 'software stack' - PF/OpenSSH/OpenSSL/OpenSMTPd/... - lots of great stuff.

[1] from FreeBSD 9.0 and later suspend/resume also works, but it worked a lot earlier and better on OpenBSD
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2012
gilles gilles is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default worry not, sir

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
@daemonfowl
@backrow

- OpenBSD's 'software stack' - PF/OpenSSH/OpenSSL/OpenSMTPd/... - lots of great stuff.
worry not sir, as OpenSMTPD has been ported to FreeBSD (and NetBSD/dragonflyBSD,Linux,MacOSX) ;-)
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

If freezing is symptomatic of bad OS performance then I'd say : OpenBSD almost never freezes on this laptop , while I use it at times as a full desktop (gnome/kde) with lost of GUI applications running at the same time .. this was not the case with PcBSD.On a 8 giga flash stick OpenBSD installs & runs well ! when I first tried installing PcBSD on that very stick it installed but hang on boot and never got on to fancy Kde4.

Is this Equation correct?
Security/Reliability + Usability = Good Performance.
Doesn't it lack a human factor : one's ego : me .. me .. me ? What I'd be using/expecting ..
Doesn't it lack a machine factor : the hardware with all its + & - ? AMD 64 intel athlon ppc ..
I used httrack to mirror big edu sites once on Windows : Fiasco , as data size gets bigger & you can't do extra tasks with ease.In OpenBSD : I was on fvwm , httrack xterms filled 3 to 4 screens : that makes : 12 mirroring instances for days .. It never froze.
Good Performance : offering maximum functionality with minimal/zero undesirable consequences.On Compaq Mini CQ10-130SE : Win** overheats machine while boastfully serving you a Gui+IE.This was not the case with NetBSD/OpenBSD : they serve X + full unix functionality that a Unix average user would expect using .. this without smothering the machine.
Quote:
FreeBSD developers tend to use Macs/Macbooks for their workplace instead of FreeBSD
It's most likely they have to .. (eg. MacOsX's Vmware Fusion is the best emulation product that ever existed .. so they can test & evaluate FreeBSD with more ease while still working on the desktop .. smooth trans between guest & host unfound elsewhere)
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
ocicat ocicat is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,873
Thanked 190 Times in 160 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonfowl View Post
Is this Equation correct?
Security/Reliability + Usability = Good Performance.
No.

Performance is a measurement of various rates, eg. how many transactions can a database handle per minute, how many requests can a Web server handle per minute, etc.

Doing some basic research is in order. Wikipedia's entry is a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_performance
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
ocicat ocicat is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,873
Thanked 190 Times in 160 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonfowl View Post
Quote:
FreeBSD developers tend to use Macs/Macbooks for their workplace instead of FreeBSD
It's most likely they have to ..
Not at all. This is an excuse.

The practice of developing enhancements directly on the targeted operating system is preferable as it can expose bugs masked in other environments. The practice is known as "eating your own dogfood".
Quote:
(eg. MacOsX's Vmware Fusion is the best emulation product that ever existed .. so they can test & evaluate FreeBSD with more ease while still working on the desktop .. smooth trans between guest & host unfound elsewhere)
Whether Fusion is a good product or not is irrelevant. In fact, it could create a different set of interactions (by changing timing, the placement of objects in memory, altering the environment for race conditions, etc.) than would be seen in the native environment. Developing with added layers of software in place adds unnecessary complexity & may be counterproductive.

The only time such practices are valid is when all customers will be using the developed product in the same environment. If any aren't, then thorough testing needs to be taking place in the environment in which the developed product will be used.
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,052
Thanked 118 Times in 93 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonfowl View Post
It's most likely they have to .. (eg. MacOsX's Vmware Fusion is the best emulation product that ever existed .. so they can test & evaluate FreeBSD with more ease while still working on the desktop .. smooth trans between guest & host unfound elsewhere)
Its Your opinion and I respect it, but IMHO its not that way ... and they *definitely* are not forced to do that.

Also, VMware Fusion being better then VirtualBox on FreeBSD? Let them make VirtualBox better then ... its also open-source.

What about FreeBSD Jails, they are useless for development then?
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Thank you @ocicat for schooling us & for the always useful information you supply!
Thank you @vermaden for sharing ideas and allowing us to ! & sorry to both for being shallow , it's but an amateur's feedback not a technician.
Software Quality : OpenBSD does better than the rest --> least buggy OS !
Ubuntu is for humans , easy & pop ya , but the more you install on it the buggier it gets.Try installing as much packages on OpenBSD and compare ! they never undermine the OS stability. (again my shallow feedback)
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2012
daemonfowl daemonfowl is offline
bsdstudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DaemonLand
Posts: 834
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
What about FreeBSD Jails, they are useless for development then?
How come ? they are the pride of the FreeBSD Project :-)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good news for AMD-64 sharris FreeBSD General 6 12th May 2011 10:20 PM
OpenBSD Impressive pf performance improvement in OpenBSD current J65nko News 0 5th January 2010 08:07 PM
Bad ftp performance Randux NetBSD Package System (pkgsrc) 2 4th January 2009 09:17 PM
are trackballs any good? ephemera General Hardware 11 31st July 2008 09:37 PM
Good morning all SgtHarper Feedback and Suggestions 0 9th May 2008 08:20 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content copyright © 2007-2010, the authors
Daemon image copyright ©1988, Marshall Kirk McKusick