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Old 20th November 2008
quique quique is offline
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Exclamation Kuro5hin: FreeBSD Owes Apple Big

Did anyone notice this story at kuro5hin:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/11/17/16268/141

It claims that Apples has given so much back to FreeBSD that FreeBSD should pay back by merging with Darwin.

I guess someone could write a well-argued rebuttal...
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Old 20th November 2008
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FreeBSD doesn't owe Apple anything, FreeBSD is happy and thankful towards Apple that they contributed code, but nothing more.

I also wonder how much code Apple has actually given back to FreeBSD, this page seems to claim that FreeBSD took ZFS, ULE scheduler, and DTrace support from Apple ... I was under the impression that these implementations were done by FreeBSD people.

Also, calling OpenBSD and NetBSD ``an idiosyncratic and lethargic technological backwater'' clearly proves his ignorance.

This guy is an idiot, /ignore
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Old 20th November 2008
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Wow.. such ignorance.. it's just sad.

That article is full of erroneous research.. "Apple's own GCC4?" please.. someone ban this guy from the Internet.
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Old 20th November 2008
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kuro5hin!? I thought that was dead and buried. He's either stupid as they come or trying to provoke BSD users into a flame war, my vote is both.


Hmm, should I file it under /dev/trolls/firestarter or /dev/null? Tough choice ;-)
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Old 20th November 2008
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Just read the Wikipedia article about Jordan Hubbard, one of the co-founders of the FreeBSD project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Hubbard

Now who owes who?
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Old 20th November 2008
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This dude was the first Linux troll at the official forums.
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Old 21st November 2008
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At least something to laugh
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Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
It's funny that, now that Apple has slowed down, FreeBSD is releasing so frequently and it was FreeBSD 7 that picked up the pace to better match Apple's releases. It didn't hurt that they were also giving a world hungry for critical patches and cutting-edge releases what they wanted either. FreeBSD efficiently used SMP configurations now, supporting more than two processors, and borrowed filesystem journaling from Darwin. It also used Apple's own GCC4, which had been building Mac OS X since Leopard. And like Leopard, FreeBSD also integrated Sun's DTrace and a new scheduler. It was clear that by this point FreeBSD releases were almost entirely based on what Apple had done with Darwin the year or so prior.
Wow, someone is gotta be joking...

Could this be true? I don't believe FreeBSD takes code from Darwin, anyway..
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Old 21st November 2008
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The article is rubbish and the OP has spammed forums.freebsd.org too.

I suspect the OP is a spammer and I request the mods to take notice.
Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
I also wonder how much code Apple has actually given back to FreeBSD, this page seems to claim that FreeBSD took ZFS, ULE scheduler, and DTrace support from Apple ... I was under the impression that these implementations were done by FreeBSD people.
Its strange that Mac OS X gained so much SMP power after FreeBSD devs finished ULE scheduler in FreeBSD 7.0 ...

Sharing of code flows in both ways for sure, but Apple takes more then gives.

... and yes, article is a shit.
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Old 21st November 2008
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Take FreeBSD away from Apple and what did they have?
Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
Take FreeBSD away from Apple and what did they have?
Some lousy parts of the original Mach kernel and a some bits of Gnu and NetBSD

Addendum:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...st/003674.html

Quote:
I'd be a bit cautious about saying XNU is a Mach kernel. XNU is not a
microkernel, but it contains a lot more Mach code than FreeBSD does.
However, XNU contains massive amounts of FreeBSD code, including countless IPC
models, security parts, VFS, network stack, distributed file systems, etc.
Saying that "Mac OS X is just FreeBSD with an Apple GUI" is certainly false on
face value, but it's not correct to say that the kernel isn't in significant
part FreeBSD-derived. Here's what I find in my most recent XNU kernel source
drop from Apple:

21M of code labeled explicitly as BSD, largely from FreeBSD but heavily
modified.

16M of code labeled explicitly as Mach, largely from OSF Mach, but heavily
modified.

676K of code labeled explicitly as Security, actually the TrustedBSD MAC
Framework from FreeBSD, with modifications.

2.7M of device driver code in the IOKit tree, mostly from Apple.

2M of "libkern" -- mostly Apple code (C++ parts for IOKit) and zlib.

And then some loose ends, such as libsyscall, which is really userspace code
but stored in the kernel source tree, configuration files, GDB macros, etc.

The above is just the XNU drop, so excludes the large number of additional
loadable kernel extensions (kexts), which include a lot of device drivers
(largely Apple and vendor code), but also things like smbfs (pretty much
verbatim FreeBSD code).

> If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream product,
> then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already quite
> impressive.

This is true, but if you measure the proportion of Firefox code that is
FreeBSD vs the proportion of XNU code that is FreeBSD, we definitely have more
of a showing in XNU, making up a significant part of the product :-). One
shouldn't underestimate Apple's work to improve our code and produce new
facilities, some of which has come back to FreeBSD, but likewise they gained a
lot by using all that FreeBSD code, not to mention hiring a lot of FreeBSD
developers to work on the product.

Robert N M Watson
Computer Laboratory
University of Cambridge
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Last edited by Oliver_H; 21st November 2008 at 12:50 PM.
Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
This dude was the first Linux troll at the official forums.
Yep, Brad Davis said that "Trollaxor" also posted his rant there, but it was quickly deleted and the user banned.

When I read that at the front page of Kuro5hin I was concerned that people could believe it, but you're probably right: it's not worth wasting anybody's time in replying that pile of bullshit.

As DNAeon, I also wonder whether FreeBSD does actually take any code from Darwin.


As a sidenote, I don't understand why you call him a "Linux troll", as he doesn't even mention Linux.
I guess I'll never understand the animosity against other projects that some zealots have. IMHO *BSD and GNU/Linux are on the same wagon, and I'm happy to use both.
Old 21st November 2008
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I don't think FreeBSD does take code from Darwin, I do believe Apple wrapped the APSL licence around their contributions.. While it may be somewhat BSD-like in nature, the licence text is quite verbose and.. extensive.
Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quique View Post
Yep, Brad Davis said that "Trollaxor" also posted his rant there, but it was quickly deleted and the user banned.
Quique,

Can you explain what you mean by that?

If you are referring to this Brad David then is that supposed to be an insult?

Or do we have a new comer with an attitude?

On your very first post you start a thread about a stupid, contentious article that has just been banned in another forum, I think there is good reason to be suspicious and whats to prevent "Trollaxor" from using a different alias like say "Quique"?

Last edited by ephemera; 21st November 2008 at 02:45 PM.
Old 21st November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quique View Post
As a sidenote, I don't understand why you call him a "Linux troll", as he doesn't even mention Linux.
Shouldn't it be, "Trollintosh" or something?
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Old 22nd November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro5hin
FreeBSD efficiently used SMP configurations now, supporting more than two processors, and borrowed filesystem journaling from Darwin.
I'm pretty sure that FreeBSD's SMP was borrowed from BSD/OS, not Darwin. This can be seen right from the opening paragraph of this paper.

One of the reasons that it took so long for FreeBSD to have journaled UFS was because of SoftUpdates, which sort of gives the effect of journaling. Thus, it wasn't really needed for some time.

This article was also posted here very recently. Maybe the mailing lists are getting it, too?
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Last edited by snes-addict; 22nd November 2008 at 01:34 AM. Reason: forgot to finish statement
Old 22nd November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
Can you explain what you mean by that?
Sure: Brad Davis told me that Trollaxor had posted his rant not only on Kuro5hin, but also on the official FreeBSD forum. He decided that the story was a flamebait and the guy a troll, so he deleted the post and banned the user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
If you are referring to this Brad David then is that supposed to be an insult?
As your link is broken I don't who that Brad David is.

I'm referring to Brad Davis <brd @ freebsd.org>, the fellow who posts the FreeBSD Quarterly Status Reports, who is also a member of the FreeBSD Postmaster Team, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
Or do we have a new comer with an attitude?

On your very first post you start a thread about a stupid, contentious article that has just been banned in another forum, I think there is good reason to be suspicious and whats to prevent "Trollaxor" from using a different alias like say "Quique"?
When I posted it I didn't know that it had been deleted in the other forum. Brad told me later, politely explaining that it would be better just ignoring it.

Ok, I was fool enough to bite the bait and think that the article should get a fact-based answer. My bad, but I don't think I deserve so much animosity from you
Old 22nd November 2008
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> Ok, I was fool enough to bite the bait and think that the article should get a fact-based answer. My bad, but I don't think I deserve so much animosity from you

Quique,

I thought you were refering to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Davis_(actor).

I did search for a Brad or Davis on forum.freebsd.org and found none ... never occured to me that it could be all initials (brd).

Well, what can I say ... I completely misunderstood the whole thing.

I offer my sincerest apologies.
Old 22nd November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
>Well, what can I say ... I completely misunderstood the whole thing.

I offer my sincerest apologies.
Ok, no problem. It looks like both of us shoult take a few minutes to think before posting...

Happy hacking.
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