DaemonForums  

Go Back   DaemonForums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic

Off-Topic Everything else.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7th June 2009
Oliver_H's Avatar
Oliver_H Oliver_H is offline
Real Name: Oliver Herold
UNIX lover
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killasmurf86 View Post
If something works for everything, it doesn't work for anything

Make each program do one thing well.

you can tell same for BSD (FreeBSD=perfomance, OpenBSD=security, NetBSD=portability)

merging projects would sacrifice bought performance, security and portability (+ big bonus of bugs)
Just an addendum: NetBSD is also known for performance especially compared to FreeBSD. For some time it lost the top position, but today it's in the game again.
__________________
use UNIX or die :-)
Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2009
Oko's Avatar
Oko Oko is offline
Rc.conf Instructor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kosovo, Serbia
Posts: 1,102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
Just an addendum: NetBSD is also known for performance especially compared to FreeBSD. For some time it lost the top position, but today it's in the game again.
Good observations. People like to stereotype BSDs. I really have no idea
were so called portability of NetBSD is coming from (at least on workstations). Mac PowerPC port of NetBSD is very solid, sparc64 is a big joke as well as sgi mips.

Have you recently seen OpenBSD sgi port. It works almost on the same hardware as Irix. OpenBSD sparc64 is second to none. I will dare to say that is in par with native Solaris.
Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2009
graudeejs's Avatar
graudeejs graudeejs is offline
Real Name: Aldis Berjoza
ISO Quartermaster
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Riga, Latvia
Posts: 588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
Just an addendum: NetBSD is also known for performance especially compared to FreeBSD. For some time it lost the top position, but today it's in the game again.
Well then, I have no choice, but to try it on my laptop
Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2009
DrJ DrJ is offline
ISO Quartermaster
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gold Country, CA
Posts: 507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
OpenBSD sparc64 is second to none. I will dare to say that is in par with native Solaris.
I may have to try Open then (*gasp!*). I have a few old sparc64 boxes that are laying fallow at the moment. One is a dual 500MHz box, with dual graphics cards. Other than its noise (loud!) it is a nice machine. FreeBSD support is OK, but not really that stellar.
Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2009
BSDfan666 BSDfan666 is offline
Real Name: N/A, this is the interweb.
Helpful companion
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,223
Default

Unlike the other BSD projects, the sparc64 port is considered a primary platform.. many of the developers have one.. which accounts for the stellar performance that Oko is seeing.
Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2009
Oko's Avatar
Oko Oko is offline
Rc.conf Instructor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kosovo, Serbia
Posts: 1,102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
Unlike the other BSD projects, the sparc64 port is considered a primary platform.. many of the developers have one.. which accounts for the stellar performance that Oko is seeing.
Because unlike other BSD projects OpenBSD developers and users alike prefer Big-endian hardware over cr***.

Last edited by Oko; 8th June 2009 at 06:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2010
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.feyrer.de/NetBSD/bx/blosxom.cgi/nb_20090922_2256.html
In contrast to the current and previous NetBSD releases, NetBSD-current and the next major release (6.0) uses a new system for kernel modules. Unlike the "old" loadable kernel modules (LKMs), the new module framework supports dependencies between modules, and loading of kernel modules on demand.

Today, I've found time to install NetBSD-current/i386, and configure things that I use here - /kern, /proc, and some NFS, in addition to a local disk. Now, looking at the list of loaded kernel modules reveals:

Code:
% modstat 
NAME            CLASS   SOURCE  REFS    SIZE    REQUIRES
compat          misc    builtin 0       -       -
coredump        misc    filesys 1       3067    -
exec_elf32      misc    filesys 0       7225    coredump
exec_script     misc    filesys 0       1187    -
ffs             vfs     boot    0       166292  -
kernfs          vfs     filesys 0       11131   -
nfs             vfs     filesys 0       145345  -
procfs          vfs     filesys 0       28068   -
ptyfs           vfs     filesys 0       8975    -
Interesting points here are that nfs, kernfs and procfs are just listed in /etc/fstab, and the related filesystem modules are loaded automatically, without a need to worry if they are needed or not. In fact I just assumed NFS is in the GENERIC kernel. Seems it's loaded as module!

Another interesting module is "coredump", which is loaded by the module to execure 32bit ELF programs, exec_elf32. This is an example of module dependencies, and again no manual intervention was needed.

So what modules are there? First, let's remember that kernel modules are object code that implements facilities for the running kernel, and which interfaces closely with the running kernel. As such, they need to match the kernel version, ideally. When one of the kernel's API or ABI interfaces changes, it's best to rebuild all modules. For NetBSD, the kernel's version is bumped e.g. from 5.99.15 to 5.99.16 for such an interface change, which helps tracking those changes.

Back to the question of what modules are there. Now that we know kernel modules are closely tied to the version of the kernel (which still is in the file /netbsd, btw), associated modules -- for the example of NetBSD/i386 5.99.15 -- can be found in /stand/i386/5.99.15/modules:

Code:
% cd /stand/i386/5.99.15/modules
% ls -F
accf_dataready/     drm/                lfs/                ptyfs/
accf_httpready/     efs/                mfs/                puffs/
adosfs/             exec_aout/          miniroot/           putter/
aio/                exec_elf32/         mqueue/             radeondrm/
azalia/             exec_script/        msdos/              smbfs/
cd9660/             ext2fs/             nfs/                sysvbfs/
coda/               fdesc/              nfsserver/          tmpfs/
coda5/              ffs/                nilfs/              tprof/
compat/             filecore/           ntfs/               tprof_pmi/
compat_freebsd/     fss/                null/               udf/
compat_ibcs2/       hfs/                overlay/            umap/
compat_linux/       i915drm/            portal/             union/
compat_ossaudio/    kernfs/             ppp_bsdcomp/        vnd/
compat_svr4/        ksem/               ppp_deflate/
coredump/           layerfs/            procfs/
Code:
% ls */*.kmod
accf_dataready/accf_dataready.kmod      layerfs/layerfs.kmod
accf_httpready/accf_httpready.kmod      lfs/lfs.kmod
adosfs/adosfs.kmod                      mfs/mfs.kmod
aio/aio.kmod                            miniroot/miniroot.kmod
azalia/azalia.kmod                      mqueue/mqueue.kmod
cd9660/cd9660.kmod                      msdos/msdos.kmod
coda/coda.kmod                          nfs/nfs.kmod
coda5/coda5.kmod                        nfsserver/nfsserver.kmod
compat/compat.kmod                      nilfs/nilfs.kmod
compat_freebsd/compat_freebsd.kmod      ntfs/ntfs.kmod
compat_ibcs2/compat_ibcs2.kmod          null/null.kmod
compat_linux/compat_linux.kmod          overlay/overlay.kmod
compat_ossaudio/compat_ossaudio.kmod    portal/portal.kmod
compat_svr4/compat_svr4.kmod            ppp_bsdcomp/ppp_bsdcomp.kmod
coredump/coredump.kmod                  ppp_deflate/ppp_deflate.kmod
drm/drm.kmod                            procfs/procfs.kmod
efs/efs.kmod                            ptyfs/ptyfs.kmod
exec_aout/exec_aout.kmod                puffs/puffs.kmod
exec_elf32/exec_elf32.kmod              putter/putter.kmod
exec_script/exec_script.kmod            radeondrm/radeondrm.kmod
ext2fs/ext2fs.kmod                      smbfs/smbfs.kmod
fdesc/fdesc.kmod                        sysvbfs/sysvbfs.kmod
ffs/ffs.kmod                            tmpfs/tmpfs.kmod
filecore/filecore.kmod                  tprof/tprof.kmod
fss/fss.kmod                            tprof_pmi/tprof_pmi.kmod
hfs/hfs.kmod                            udf/udf.kmod
i915drm/i915drm.kmod                    umap/umap.kmod
kernfs/kernfs.kmod                      union/union.kmod
ksem/ksem.kmod                          vnd/vnd.kmod
Code:
% find . -type f -print | wc -l
      58
There are directories with major kernel subsystems in the named directory, each one containing various files with the ".kmod" extension, for kernel modules. Subsystems include kernel accept filters, various file systems, compatibility modules, execution modules for various binary formats, and many others. Currently there are 58 kernel modules, and I guess we can expect more in the future.

P.S.: I've seen one confusion WRT systems that use kernel modules to whatever extent, as they shrink the size of the actual kernel binary: Even with kernel modules, an operating system is still a monolithic kernel: The modules are tied in closely into the system once loaded, ending in a monolithic system. In contrast, a "microkernel" is something very different, and it doesn't have anything to do with kernel modules. :-)
My comments?

Pretty Linuxish I must say, /stand/i386/5.99.15/modules looks very similar to /lib/modules/2.6.27-14/kernel ...

Also why ../MODULE/MODULE.kmod format, couldnt it be just ../MODULE.kmod?

FreeBSD schema seems far more KISS and tidy with /boot/NAME/kernel and /boot/NAME/module.ko then NetBSD.
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2010
BSDfan666 BSDfan666 is offline
Real Name: N/A, this is the interweb.
Helpful companion
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,223
Default

OpenBSD wins over both NetBSD & FreeBSD.

Code:
# modstat
Type     Id Off Loadaddr Size Info     Rev Module Name
#
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2010
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,050
Default

@BSDfan666

Explain ...
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2010
BSDfan666 BSDfan666 is offline
Real Name: N/A, this is the interweb.
Helpful companion
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,223
Default

No kernel modules at all.

Sorry, my attempt at humour isn't always apparent.
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2010
tetrodozombie tetrodozombie is offline
Real Name: bill slusser
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 82
Default

I think among the three BSDs, the install process for each demonstrates what philosophy and deeper coding methods belong to each respective BSD.

FreeBSD -- Long ugly install process. Hated it!

NetBSD -- In between FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Not as long and ugly as FreeBSD's install, but it does look prettier with, if I remember correctly green colors. Not bad.

OpenBSD -- It's install process is the simplest of the three. When I first install OpenBSD as a joke as I was using FreeBSD at the time, I was hooked in the 7 minutes it took me to install it. Being relatively new to Unix, I do play around and screw things up, so I have to reinstall over and over again. OpenBSD let's you do this fast and learn a lot more faster than the other two. After about 5 - 10 reinstalls, you should have everything close to memorized. OpenBSD follows the philosophy Keep It Simple Stupid and works elegantly. I think OpenBSD is the best b/c it's power is in its simplicity. Oh! That's the Unix philosophy. Duh! No wonder it's the best even to a newbie like me who doesn't really know that much about Unix, but just seeing OpenBSD for what it was the first time I installed it, even an idiot should know OpenBSD rocks!
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2010
vermaden's Avatar
vermaden vermaden is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: pl_PL.lodz
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tetrodozombie View Post
I think among the three BSDs, the install process for each demonstrates what philosophy and deeper coding methods belong to each respective BSD.

FreeBSD -- Long ugly install process. Hated it!
http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=4200

Depends HOW you use provided tools ...
__________________
religions, worst damnation of mankind
"If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds

Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”.
vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd
Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2010
tetrodozombie tetrodozombie is offline
Real Name: bill slusser
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 82
Default

FreeBSD is a great Unix OS. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I didn't intend to belittle and depricate it in any way shape or form. It's just for me, OpenBSD is a greater Unix OS. I've tried different Linux distributions and liked them, I loved FreeBSD -- my first BSD, and NetBSD isn't all that bad either, but OpenBSD is just right for me. It has all the things I like to suit my personality.

I like their logo. I like the fact that you get stickers when you make a contribution to OpenBSD and a collectable case with the CD's. I like that it's on a CD, not a DVD. I like the artwork. I like that you can get posters and t-shirts with Puffy. It's just a personal choice, you might have different feeling, and that's ok with me.

I learn unix much faster on OpenBSD than with any other Linux or BSD I've used before because of this and it's considered by some to be the most difficult BSD to learn. All the artwork and they way things are done (t-shirts, etc.) make learning OpenBSD fun, not mechanical and tiresome. That's all I'm sayin'.
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
thedirtyvms's Avatar
thedirtyvms thedirtyvms is offline
.:VMS:.
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harisman View Post
Hi to all,

After many years working with open source OS's (Linuces and BSD's), I think that the BSD community tries to mimic Linux at its bads.

Currently there are these BSD distributions and counting: DragonFly BSD, FreeBSD, PC-BSD, DesktopBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, MirOS BSD, etc.. .
While this a very small list compared to the thousands of Linux flavors, since the BSD community is very small compared to the Linux one, I think that these projects should be merged somehow to provide a magnificent BSD operating system, to make it the best secure/multiplatform/fastest/stable operating system available.

Almost all of the above BSD's are trying to re-invent the wheel with different approaches, waisting development time and resources, instead of focusing their powers to fix crucial BSD problems and adding necessary functionalities that already exist in Linux or introduce new ones.

What is your opinion about this?
Well, I've notticed last years FreeBSD is absorbing a lot of linux users as a desktop users.

FreeBSD knows the linux fans are coming to try FreeBSD and it was improving the desktop experience.

You can use whatever OS you prefer, I use NetBSD as a desktop and I have all I need. Anyway, if I should recommend a BSD for desktop use I will recommend FreeBSD.


About BSD are not distributions...

The name says " Berkeley Software Distribution", not's saying flavour or somewhat. I understand why you prefer say flavour because you want separate BSD of Linux, and they must realize Linux is a kernel, so it's not a complete OS while BSD is a complete OS, but stay saying berkeley software distribution, so It's correct say it's a BSD distribution because it's the name they decided.

Well, about linuxism in BSD, I guess of 3 main BSD: Net, Open and FreeBSD, the FreeBSD operating system is improving a lot of features for a desktop experience.

Or at least, I guess FreeBSD has better experience with desktop.

About mix all BSD, it will be interesting take the good features of all BSD

like jails of freebsd and more, like the portability of NetBSD on all archs, and the "security" of openbsd, you have HardenedBSD, and the hammer of DragonflyBSD, and some drivers are missing on some BSD.

But... seems more like an utopia


I don't understand why others are saying you are an ignorant.

All of us are ignorants on somewhat. We learn to teach others, not to blame
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
thedirtyvms's Avatar
thedirtyvms thedirtyvms is offline
.:VMS:.
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
I don't know about Oko, but I'm not very fond of people like you.. I honestly don't care how smart you think you are, but considering you feel the need to say that you're smarter then both of us.. that just speaks volumes about your character.
What about you?

Are you saying he is an ignorant and talking with arrogance to him. There is no need for that.

This is a forum and should be some rules, at least respect to others.
And you're missing this respect, not only you.
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
sacerdos_daemonis's Avatar
sacerdos_daemonis sacerdos_daemonis is offline
Real Name: Will forever be a secret.
Package Pilot
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Currently residing in China.
Posts: 187
Default

Did you look at the dates of the posts in this thread? The last posts before yours were almost eight years ago. Responding to posters who have not been here in a few years is unlikely to generate rebutals.


But before I go:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtyvms View Post
About BSD are not distributions...

The name says " Berkeley Software Distribution", not's saying flavour or somewhat.
There is a difference between distributions of Linux and flavours of the BSD Distribution. (BSD is the distribution.)
__________________
OpenBSD 6.2
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
thedirtyvms's Avatar
thedirtyvms thedirtyvms is offline
.:VMS:.
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacerdos_daemonis View Post
Did you look at the dates of the posts in this thread? The last posts before yours were almost eight years ago. Responding to posters who have not been here in a few years is unlikely to generate rebutals.


But before I go:

There is a difference between distributions of Linux and flavours of the BSD Distribution. (BSD is the distribution.)

Usually on most forums the off-topic section allows necropost. I'm not sure about here.

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=10

I saw nothing on rules about necropost, so maybe doesn't care, or there is info in other link

I guess will be fine with both names, since really it will mean Net Berkeley Software Distribution, Free Berkeley Software Distribution, Open Berkeley Software Distribution.

I can't understand why is incorrect say Distribution since theorically I can say:

I'm using the Net Berkeley Software Distribution.

And for some unix-like users is wrong if I say:

I'm using the NetBSD distribution {or NetBSDistribution}

I guess both are saying exactly the same

The word Distribution in software means some packages arranged to make them work together/

Then, the word can apply for Linux and unix-like and maybe all OS or set of packages.

Wikipedia says:
A distribution, or distro, is a collection of software components built, assembled and configured so that it can be used essentially "as is" for its intended purpose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_distribution

Last edited by thedirtyvms; 1 Week Ago at 02:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
e1-531g e1-531g is offline
VPN Cryptographer
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 375
Default

NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD are different distributions of software and different OSes. They are a family of OSes, because they have the same ancestor.
Distributions of Gnu/Linux are the same OS, because they still follow upstream Linux kernel, GNU C library and so on. They have some patches, but these patches follow upstream projects and don't fork them. Debian, CentOS, Slackware - they are still following upstream Linux kernel.
__________________
Signature: Furthermore, I consider that systemd must be destroyed.
Based on Latin oratorical phrase
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
sacerdos_daemonis's Avatar
sacerdos_daemonis sacerdos_daemonis is offline
Real Name: Will forever be a secret.
Package Pilot
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Currently residing in China.
Posts: 187
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtyvms View Post
Usually on most forums the off-topic section allows necropost. I'm not sure about here.
I do not see necroposting as a problem, especially if a thread is still relevant. I was merely pointing out that it seems a little strange to quote and respond to posts made several years ago by people who are no longer here, since that suggests expecting those people to reply.

Quote:
I can't understand why is incorrect say Distribution since theorically I can say:

I'm using the Net Berkeley Software Distribution.

And for some unix-like users is wrong if I say:
The confusion is created by 1) applying a Linux definition to BSD, and 2) apparently a lack of understanding of the differences between the two. (There are a few terms used by both BSD and Linux, but with slighty different meanings, such as blob.)
__________________
OpenBSD 6.2
Reply With Quote
Old 1 Week Ago
IdOp's Avatar
IdOp IdOp is offline
Too dumb for a smartphone
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: twisting on the daemon's fork(2)
Posts: 763
Default

Regarding posters who are "no longer here", I've noticed their usernames show up with a red background. But what exactly does that mean? Are they banned? Did they cancel their accounts? Have they been inactive too long? Something else?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fixed "xinit" after _7 _8, "how" here in case anyones' "X" breaks... using "nvidia" jb_daefo Guides 0 5th October 2009 09:31 PM
"Thanks" and "Edit Tags". diw Feedback and Suggestions 2 29th March 2009 12:06 AM
Scripted sysinstall fails with "Command 'system' failed" PeterSteele FreeBSD Installation and Upgrading 0 13th November 2008 11:31 PM
Newbie-friendly "printing in OpenBSD" guide wanted Shagbag OpenBSD Packages and Ports 5 7th July 2008 09:26 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content copyright © 2007-2010, the authors
Daemon image copyright ©1988, Marshall Kirk McKusick