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Old 29th May 2008
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windependence windependence is offline
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Yes it will and to tell you the truth, as a consultant, I just want it to work too! I have been using a lot of packaged open source lately because I don't have time to build something like postfix+clamav+spamassassin+ldap you know? So I install something like Zimbra on a VM and save it and then I can just recreate it for the next client on the VM no matter what host OS we are running. It's all about time when you aren't doing things like messing with your own servers at home. I'm a geek and love this stuff but sometimes I like to just push the pedal and make it go, or just buy the table.

-Tim
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Old 29th May 2008
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Originally Posted by windependence View Post
The answer is yes, they do the server install with the server distibution and then apt-get someting called ubuntu-desktop. I haven't personally used it so I don't know what it loads but it looks like a full blown GUI.
ubuntu-desktop is a meta-package that depends on everything needed to run the GNOME version of Ubuntu. There is no functional difference between Ubuntu Server 8.04 LTS with ubuntu-desktop installed and Ubuntu 8.04 LTS.

Same with kubuntu-desktop and xubuntu-desktop. They are the meta packages that install the KDE and XFce environments used by Kubuntu and Xubuntu.
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Old 29th May 2008
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Originally Posted by scottro View Post
I was soooooo tempted to post something like nano???? What a wimp. Real men use ex. (Not that I do, but....)
Yeah, I'll admit it, when it comes to vi, i never quite got to that point that some people do where they think it's God. I still much prefer nano or pico. I can use vi if my life depends on it but I'm not fast on it by any means. It's probably my only weakness.....well besides Latin women.

-Tim
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Old 29th May 2008
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Ok, that was my laugh for the morning---great end line.
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Old 29th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Hello,



Let's be realistic. In everything, the majority of people don't care to learn. There is a small group who are proficient and those trying to learn, and those who can't be bothered and 'just want it to work'.

When you go to the furniture store, do you care how a dovetail joint is created, or do you just want a table? There are many fine woodworkers who could carve a dovetail in their sleep with hand tools, but most people just want the table and want to not to break.

How many people can work on their car? They don't care! They just want to push the gas pedal and have the car move. If the car breaks down, they don't care why, they just want it fixed - NOW!! They don't want the mechanic to explain the innards of the valve train or tell them how to fix it, they just want it fixed. Even those who might have some inkling that they can fix it themselves (hey, I'll save me some money) just want a quick tutorial on how to fix it and don't want to know the fundamentals of automotive engineering. And they will call with the most inane questions and just want a quick answer (and I have heard some whoopers as a mechanic and parts clerk).

So yes, I think the majority of those who use computers (machine-independent) just want the stupid contraption to work without knowing or caring how or why.
I agree with Scottro, it's a great illustration JMJ.

But what if the table breaks and you've got to fix it yourself? xD.


The worlds always been this way, few wants to plant crops or hunt for food let along cook it but everyone wants to eat it. The people that actually do, if they go extinct and there is noone who knows how this worlds gonna be in a bad way.


It's very easy for someone to just chuck it off on someone else but someday it will catch up to people. I remember, I was once looking for a (portable) library to provide an implementation of FTP and an API for usage in a small project.


Off Google I found a thread where someone asked how to do something similar to what I was needing, through Java's out of box stock of things. Someone told the lad to go implement FTP himself and learn how to do it instead of ask to be told how.


I thought it was a rather strange thing to do, after all who wants to write an implementation of the FTP protocol for a small project if you don't have to.


The old mans reply to the thread followed the format of: Because, if no one in this world ever implements the FTP Protocol the knowledge of how will pass away.

I'd hate to write an FTP lib but I think that googled thread and the old programmer has a good point.


Some day, we will all sit and wonder, how the heck did our great, great, grand-programmers do it.

Because we also forgot how to write emulators because we always pawned off the task on someone else who knew better. And because no body left alive wanted to learn about how application binary interfaces work, that ideas out of the question too.

And what on earth is ANSI C? It's the year 2262 and Python is the oldest language still in use, and almost no body remembers how to use it because it is so hard to code in.


So how do I get my music off this server? Moving parts in data storage are so 2160s 8=) it ain't going to fit in my Neo-Dell , unless maybe I jam it in the porti-crystal slot?


-> the past can come back to byte the future in the tush if the present generation is not careful.
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Old 30th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windependence View Post
I just started hanging out on the Ubuntu server forums and have noticed a trend I am really dissapointed in. I spent several hours last night trying to convince people on the SERVER forum why they shoud not load a GUI on their server. It was an excercise in futility to say the least. You would think since it was the SERVER forum, at least the experienced users would agree with me but that wasn't the case with most of them. I know this is a symptom of Micro$oft taking over more and more of the server market.

It's refreshing to come here and still see people that know what they are doing and that want to do things the correct way. once they port VMware to BSD, I'm outta the linux space for good. Sadly, I am seeing the dumbing down of Linux as it becomes more popular on the desktop. What do you guys think?

-Tim
I've also noticed this behaviour on the Ubuntu forums. I think this due to the fact that there are many Ubuntu users who have migrated from Windows so they are used to working in a GUI. I've noticed that many think that the command line is very hard to use and archaic, but obviously there are many things that can be done in the CLI that are very difficult if not impossible to do via GUI interfaces.
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Old 30th May 2008
drhowarddrfine drhowarddrfine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryP View Post
Some day, we will all sit and wonder, how the heck did our great, great, grand-programmers do it.
Funny you should say that. Last night I ran into a guy who had a Radio Shack TRS-80 long ago. Afterwards, I recalled making a small electronic add-on for him that saved his programs to a cassette recorder, I think. I just recall burning a small eprom by jumpering wires, no switches or buttons. I remember soldering a hundred or more wires. I remember looking at the schematics to figure where to add this thing into the computer. I remember doing this in my spare time.

What I don't know is how the heck I found the time and energy to do it.
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Old 6th June 2008
idefix idefix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey_james View Post

The majority of the linux community sucks ...
This comes from Zenwalk forum:
Quote:
Hi,

If you are new to computers, Linux or Zenwalk this is the place for you. Here there are no "dumb" questions and lot's of friendly faces. Feel free to ask "anything" you need to help you succeed.

Also...

Remember that once you become more proficient to come back and help the next newcomer. Communities thrive on people helping others and we believe our community here is strong because of the people who help fellow Zenwalkers in time of need as well as those contributing to Zenwalk.

Oh, and Welcome to Zenwalk!
What's so sucking about being friendly?
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Old 6th June 2008
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As you may already know, BSD is a smaller community than Linux, there are less people to help "new users"... and that BSD frequently gets new users from Linux these days, instead of someone who have only used Windows for their entire life, the general expectation from a new BSD user is just so much different than a new Linux user.

For BSD to be more "new user" friendly there need to be bigger community so that there are people to help "new users"; but you need new users to grow the community!! It is a catch 22 isn't it?

But not every BSD users/developers are aiming for userbase or "n00b friendliness", from what I have seen OpenBSD are generally not as patient as other BSD's when it comes to "n00b".
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Old 6th June 2008
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The whole face of Open Source is changing. Linux used to be geek only. Shucks, Windows used to be for the geekier, the others using Mac.
Then, Linux became easier to use and rather than put aside a weekend to install it, I start it just before going downstairs to buy catfood.
The mailing lists and forums gradually change too. Even the more elite lists become kinder and gentler, and if not answering the real basic questions, more gently suggesting they google.

More people discover opensource, the developers make easier to use open source programs and more newcomers come in, till even the more elite O/S's start getting the

cn ne1 hlp me plz?

(To which the answer is, Well, {Linux|BSD} is case sensitive, so first, you better fix the shift key on your keyboard. )

It's almost a natural evolution, I guess. Much of it is due to the increased ease of use of all systems.
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Old 6th June 2008
jb_daefo jb_daefo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnz View Post
As you may already know, BSD is a smaller community than Linux, there are less people to help "new users"... and that BSD frequently gets new users from Linux these days, instead of someone who have only used Windows for their entire life, the general expectation from a new BSD user is just so much different than a new Linux user.

For BSD to be more "new user" friendly there need to be bigger community so that there are people to help "new users"; but you need new users to grow the community!! It is a catch 22 isn't it?

But not every BSD users/developers are aiming for userbase or "n00b friendliness", from what I have seen OpenBSD are generally not as patient as other BSD's when it comes to "n00b".
...................
i've been wondering if a new file in /port/ (each) putting forth
a detailed, sometimes-multi-page howto would attract millions as they
migrate from pay-for OS's
...................
I put a post to that effect in the freebsd-ports@ list a few weeks ago
.................
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Old 6th June 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idefix View Post

What's so sucking about being friendly?
From my experience when I asked a question in a linux forum I was answered by:
- people who had not read my question. (it is stupid that I have to repeat in the second post what I wrote in the first one...)
- people that did not know the answer (but for a reason I have not yet understood they reply anyway)
- people who reply with a tone that underline that they are better than you because they know that little thing and you don't.

maybe they are friendly, but they are sucking also.

It could be only a problem of mine, but if it is so, why here and on bsdforums I have been always answered correctly and professionally?
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Old 6th June 2008
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I suppose it depends upon the forum. I have good things to say about all the forums where I have been a member. (Though I hear that some of them have gone downhill, the two where I am still active, CentOS and Fedora, aren't like that in my experience.)
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Old 6th June 2008
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Reading such nonsense again and again, sometimes I wonder which community really sucks. I really do like a nice flameware but it's a flamewar about the operating system of choice, it's not a flamewar about human beings.
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Old 7th June 2008
idefix idefix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubo View Post
From my experience when I asked a question in a linux forum I was answered by:
- people who had not read my question. (it is stupid that I have to repeat in the second post what I wrote in the first one...)
- people that did not know the answer (but for a reason I have not yet understood they reply anyway)
- people who reply with a tone that underline that they are better than you because they know that little thing and you don't.

maybe they are friendly, but they are sucking also.

It could be only a problem of mine, but if it is so, why here and on bsdforums I have been always answered correctly and professionally?

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Old 7th June 2008
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The Linux community is largely fractured because of the various distributions. However, let's consider the major distributions and their communities: Slackware, Gentoo, Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Open/SuSE, Mandriva, and Arch. Out of these, you can expect the behavior that you encountered from the Open/SuSE, Mandriva, Ubuntu (oviously), and possibly the Gentoo communities. I included Gentoo because it has just as many uninformed users as the easier distributions do. You can get sound advice that would please all the informed Unix users from the Slackware, Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS, Debian, and Arch communities because those distributions do not focus on ease-of-use. They focus on functionality and simplicity, although I know Debian has made things quite easy. I've noticed that you'll find the most competent Linux users are Slackware users, and that makes sense, since Slackware is such a hands-on distribution. I know lumping Fedora/Red Hat/CentOS is kind of touchy, but you can do a vanilla install, and then add things as you would on other power-distributions. And, yum and rpm don't make things easier. I like yum, and it beats any of the GUI frontends that are available for Fedora in terms of management.

You notice this kind of behavior because Linux has become sort of a fad, these days because of distributions like Ubuntu, which have slowly turned away from Unix philosophy. There's no point to making everything monolithic, to having your standard installation include a GUI. That's why, with the exception of a few Linux distributions, namely Debian, Slackware, and Arch, I think only BSD and other Unices can keep Unix alive as it is meant to be. Otherwise, the rest of the distributions seem to be fighting a competition with Windows...competition for what, to become as similar as possible to Windows but keeping the same guts.
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Old 11th June 2008
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One *good* thing IMHO that is coming out of the surge in
Linux (I use Ubuntu-Hardy-64) is that more hardware support
coming from the vendors..

and yes..
I know many folks have issues with the Binary Blobs as Theo has labeled them..

While the term more and support are definitely debatable, progress is
progress..

my .02
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Old 19th August 2008
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I'm not above throwing X11 and XFCE on a server - there are just some admin tasks that can be done more efficiently with a few open xterms, a couple basic editors and a mouse. Once the work is done, back to the CLI and the server is none the worse for wear.

Honestly, in the world of quad core and gigs of RAM, the GUI is barely going to make a dent in the resources.

I've deployed a fleet of linux-based thin clients (debian/xfce) on hardware as lowly as P200 / 64MB RAM and although boot time is lengthy, they do the job nearly on par with the newer hardware.
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Old 6th December 2010
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Originally Posted by windependence View Post
Well I'm happy to report that some users are seeing my point. I am trying to be diplomatic and logical about the whole thing, and thankfully another *BSD user has joined me on the forum who will back me up from time to time. It's always more credible coming from more than one person.

Still I am appalled at what has happened to the general Linux community. Sunnz asked if they just install the GUI on the server. The answer is yes, they do the server install with the server distibution and then apt-get someting called ubuntu-desktop. I haven't personally used it so I don't know what it loads but it looks like a full blown GUI. If this was a desktop distro I wouldn't have been so shocked but this is Ubuntu's server edition, and they even state on their web site that not loading a GUI is for security. Looks like the more popular it gets, the worse people will abuse it.

-Tim
ubuntu-desktop is a metapackage that pulls the contents of the ubuntu liveCD (kubuntu-desktop pulls kubuntu (KDE), xubuntu-desktop pulls xubuntu (Xfce) and lubuntu-desktop pulls lubuntu (LXDE)). Essentially the guy installed the desktop edition on top of ubuntu-server.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post
Actually, in that list of sticky links posted the other day, there was one excellent entry in the myths section. The myth, *BSD is better than (insert other system)

This is user opinion only.

Some people will put a GUI on a server.

When you call someone foolish, you've gone a long way towards closing their mind.

If they're inexperienced, give your reasons why you don't think it's best practice, and let it go. They can choose to listen to you or not. If you think they're foolish, well, you stated your opinion. If you come in saying, Only an idiot would put a GUI on a server, then, especially when you DON'T know what Ubuntu-desktop is, (nor do I--for all we know, it's a minimalistic GUI for certain possibly appropriate uses--probably not, but the important point here is that you're saying, "I don't know what it is, but it must be wrong."

It's possible, for example, that it's a home server for family files, that will double as a desktop and they need some sort of awkward hybrid. Just for example.

Judging from your posts here, however, I'm sure that you are giving intelligent, diplomatic arguments. Without looking at the thread, if I say, "You're doing it wrong," I'm doing exactly what I say not to do with the Ubuntu desktop thingie.
ubuntu-desktop pulls gnome.
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Old 6th December 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbsduser View Post
ubuntu-desktop is a metapackage that pulls...
fbsduser, this thread is over two years old. You are the first to respond to it in the intervening time. Why, is not entirely clear.

As most forum threads are quite timely & have very short shelf lives, most would consider any thread over a few weeks old to be dead.

If you feel you have relevant information which needs to be shared on a *BSD site about Linux, please start a new thread. There are other non-BSD subforae which are probably more appropriate for Linux discussions than the "Off Topic" subforum.
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