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Old 16th February 2011
J65nko J65nko is offline
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Default Mozilla: 'Internet Explorer 9 is not a modern browser'

From http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/15/mozilla_on_ie9/

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Mozilla has taken a right swipe at Microsoft's Internet Explorer, telling the world that the latest incarnation of IE is not a "modern browser."

On Tuesday, with both Firefox 4 and IE9 on the verge of official release, Mozilla technical evangelist Paul Rouget hit back at apparent Microsoft suggestions that the new IE offers more extensive HTML5 support than competing browsers. "Is IE9 a modern browser?" Rouget writes on his personal blog. "NO."
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Old 16th February 2011
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That's funny...IE9 got 99% on a series of html5 tests that were written by Microsoft.

I'd consider laughing, but then it's pointed out that mozilla uses the tests, too. Sigh.

Will the insanity ever end?
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Old 16th February 2011
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Browser wars of two equally bad browsers continues. They might be soon joined by the one based on WebKit as the decisions made by the developers are laughable.

The only semi-decent full blown browser is Opera. Personally, I am looking forward at the 2.7 release of NetSurf during the April celebration of the Risk OS. It might not have a JavaScript but it is never the less enough for 90% of the things I am doing on the Web.
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Old 16th February 2011
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Much ado about nothing. Personally I'm locking for the one browser that sucks less.
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Old 16th February 2011
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Here is the direct link to the page referenced in the article.
This link spells things out better.

I'd swear Paul was reading my words because, for six years, I've been saying IE has never been a modern browser. I've also said that about IE9 but never had the time to look up all the points in the second link.

Opera is very good but Firefox is highly programmable. Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari, Konqueror(?)) are very fast. Anything is far, far better than IE.
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Old 16th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
Much ado about nothing.
Actually, there's quite a bit ado. Writing modern code for browsers is complicated enough but getting that same code to work in IE is challenging, if not almost impossible. My company has, at times, spent up to 50% of our time hacking working code to make it work in IE. Many things we can't use at all because IE can't handle it.
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Old 16th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
Actually, there's quite a bit ado. Writing modern code for browsers is complicated enough but getting that same code to work in IE is challenging, if not almost impossible. My company has, at times, spent up to 50% of our time hacking working code to make it work in IE. Many things we can't use at all because IE can't handle it.
In Europe most companies don't care much about IE anymore. The last time I had to were the 90s in some web company, thanks God today we have different times.

See: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/0...70324F20110104
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Old 16th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
Webkit browsers (Chrome, Safari, Konqueror(?)) are very fast.
Konqueror is not WebKit based! It has its own rendering engine KHTML which predates WebKit. WebKit engine was originally forked of KHTML. If you can put up with WebKit stupidities your best bet for a decent browsers are something like xxxterm, surf or uzbl. I really like xxxterm but WebKit is such a turn off...
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Old 16th February 2011
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I meant Epiphany but Konqueror can use Webkit somehow.

Writing code that works in Chrome is a dream come true but the user side irritates some people, particularly Chrome, due to its somewhat spartan interface. I only use Safari for testing and I don't know how much Mac users use Safari.
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Old 16th February 2011
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> only use Safari for testing and I don't know how much Mac users use Safari.

I think most Mac users use Safari, according to my experience (I'm working with Apple stuff). But your mileage may vary, usually Apple users tend to use the defaults.
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Old 16th February 2011
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Funny, I thought IE stopped being modern around IE4 or earlier, lol.
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Old 20th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
> only use Safari for testing and I don't know how much Mac users use Safari.

I think most Mac users use Safari, according to my experience (I'm working with Apple stuff). But your mileage may vary, usually Apple users tend to use the defaults.
At my work I know 14 Mac users (including myself) and 13 of them use Firefox and I use Opera.
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Old 20th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
Personally, I am looking forward at the 2.7 release of NetSurf during the April celebration of the Risk OS. It might not have a JavaScript but it is never the less enough for 90% of the things I am doing on the Web.
I like Netsurf very much, even though I rarely use it. I’m most impressed by how portable the main library is; they have frontends for GTK, framebuffer, SDL, RISC OS, Amiga, Cocoa, Windows, and Haiku! I hope someday to find the time to make an X11 frontend similar to Surf.
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Funny, I thought IE stopped being modern around IE4 or earlier, lol.
I’ve heard the problem is IE6 was a modern browser when it came out, because Netscape was pretty bad. So everybody switched to IE, and IE stayed in place as the world passed it by.

As for this whole “modern” thing, I can’t help but feel skeptical of a lot of HTML5. Okay, there are some good things.
  • Standardizing invalid HTML parsing methods? Good.
  • Moving away from SGML? Good.
  • Removing version numbers and transitioning to a moving spec? Bad.
  • The general focus on webapps instead of presenting meaningful information to the user? Bad, at least IMHO.
I just feel like I could have gotten behind XHTML2 more easily, with its focus on marking up documents instead of flashy games and fade effects.
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Old 20th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backrow View Post
I’ve heard the problem is IE6 was a modern browser when it came out, because Netscape was pretty bad.
There was nothing wrong with Netscape. Microsoft started making proprietary elements that only worked in IE and didn't support web standards. So when Netscape didn't work the same way, everyone wondered what was wrong with Netscape. That is the basis of the US anti-trust litigation and billion dollar fine against them which, to this day, still has Microsoft under Federal oversight.
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So everybody switched to IE, and IE stayed in place as the world passed it by.
Yep.
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As for this whole “modern” thing, I can’t help but feel skeptical of a lot of HTML5.
Well, it's here to stay. My company uses it exclusively. There is no more HTML4.01.
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I just feel like I could have gotten behind XHTML2 more easily, with its focus on marking up documents instead of flashy games and fade effects.
Cause the web has moved in the direction of a big TV network instead of a source of information. HTML5 is being written by today's young script kiddies with not enough scientific background to use good science and engineering behind it but a need to cater to pretty, blinking lights and explosions.
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Old 20th February 2011
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HTML5 seems very focused on adding "cool new features", and not so much on analyzing the current problems and shortcomings of previous standards and improving on that.
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Old 20th February 2011
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A lot of them are pretty helpful. A lot of them are not HTML5 at all but people think they are.
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Old 1st March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
There was nothing wrong with Netscape. Microsoft started making proprietary elements that only worked in IE and didn't support web standards. So when Netscape didn't work the same way, everyone wondered what was wrong with Netscape. That is the basis of the US anti-trust litigation and billion dollar fine against them which, to this day, still has Microsoft under Federal oversight.Yep.
It might be flame bait but in my opinion, except for the anti-trust stuff, that is equally applicable to Netscape - only I wish they both got in deep trouble over it.
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Old 1st March 2011
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Both companies were championing new elements, as browser vendors still do today. However, Microsoft made sure their browser only worked with their products while Netscape's browser was made to work on all platforms.

When I worked at Silicon Graphics, I regularly ate lunch with Jim Clark, the president, who later founded Netscape.

Internet Explorer is based on Mosaic out of the University of Illinois. The guy who wrote it, Marc Andreesen, left and wrote all new code for his new browser...Netscape. When Charlie Rose asked him why he didn't just re-use the Mosaic code, he said, "Cause it's terrible!".
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Old 1st March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
When Charlie Rose asked him why he didn't just re-use the Mosaic code, he said, "Cause it's terrible!".
You can look at it yourself!
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Old 1st March 2011
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It's remarkable how many people don't realize that the Netscape browser is an ancestor of Firefox.
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