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Other BSD and UNIX/UNIX-like Any other flavour of BSD or UNIX that does not have a section of its own.

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Old 29th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey_james View Post
Can't do an 'ls' without colours
When you use Gentoo you can even have colored configure and compilation from portage:
http://gentoo-wiki.com/images/2/28/Grc-grendel.1.png

They all jerk of about these color all around, also dunno why.

From all avialable Linux distributions out there I found Draco GNU/Linux to be most BSD like Linux out there, with Arch Linux being on 2nd place.

Draco pros:
++ OSS by default instead of ALSA shit
++ pkgsrc.org as package management
++ /etc/rc.conf for configuration
++ BSD init scripts


Draco cons:
-- still uses this fucking mess called Linux kernel ...

And yes mate, Linux is getting worse and worse as time passes. for example ICH9 support.

All other ICH* from Intel were supported in some storage categorry ATA/SATA subsystem if I recall correctly, will you find ICH9 there? No why You thought You would, its placed somwhere in i2c bus, Linux ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post
Slackware and Debian use elvis, most others use vim. RH has vim-enhanced and vim-minimal.
FreeBSD has editors/vim and editors/vim-lite in Ports (vim-lite is without X11 support)
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Old 29th May 2008
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'Happen to be posting from an Opensolaris box (also have a BSD box and a Linux box) and using vim gets you vim. Typing vi gets you vim. Go figure. I'm told by a friend that Solaris 10 is the same.
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Old 29th May 2008
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Originally Posted by nero View Post
'Happen to be posting from an Opensolaris box (also have a BSD box and a Linux box) and using vim gets you vim. Typing vi gets you vim. Go figure. I'm told by a friend that Solaris 10 is the same.
in opensolaris they have added a lot of the gnu stuff and put it at the beginning of $path to tempt the linux crowd to cross over. Solaris has very few gnu utilities and they will never take the place of the standard utils (remember solaris is certified unix). vim (and xemacs) comes bundled with sun studio.
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Old 29th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
The problem with the default colors with most of the GNU tools is that they only work on a black background, on a white background some text is unreadable.
And the default background color of xterm is white (Except on Linux ofcourse, where "distro developers" feel the need to change the defaults for 3rd party software...)

GNU ls has the "--color" option, which is the same as the -G option on FreeBSD ... Maybe some systems enable it by default through some alias or something? (Messing with defaults again ... *sigh*)

The colors on BSD work well on both a white and black background, although I'm not sure if this is by design or accidental...

Anyway, I don't know if linux is getting worse ... But I do know these threads/rants are getting worse
In FreeBSD the colors for ls -G on a black terminal are too dark ;-)
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Old 29th May 2008
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Re phoenix's comment on ifconfig--one gets used to whatever method the distro you are using has, but that is one of my biggest complaints. Not to mention their man page--no comment about how to put an alias on a an interface--I shouldn't have to google for something so basic.

Like most of the folks posting here, it seems far more logical to me to have this all manageable in one simple rc.conf file. I use a grey background in my terminals, so the Linux ls default green for executables is quite hard to read.

Ah well. Life goes on, ob la di ob la da. Despite the problems, it's kind of the least of my worries at present.
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Old 29th May 2008
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/bin/sh and POSIX.
This is not an assumption of mine, should have posted a reference when I mentionned:

http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/portabilityissues.html
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Old 29th May 2008
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Yes, lvlamb, but this is LINUX documentation. You know, "Our documentation doesn't have to be accurate, we'll just call you stupid when it doesn't work for you."

As far as I know, the basic sh does not have the environment variable, $UID for user ID, same as id -u.

If I run a script on Linux and use the variable $UID it works. (This is with a script that begins #!/bin/sh.)

If I do it on a FreeBSD box, using sh, it won't work.
HOWEVER--the Debian people did put together a dash shell, which one can use to test true portability.

Now, you would expect that something on the LDP would be correct. It should be. It's official and all that stuff.
And there you have my biggest complaint about Linux. As the quote says that the two things out of Berkeley were BSD and LSD, one would think that it's after reading BSD docs that you would shout, "Were they on drugs??". However, it's the sort of thing I often say after reading a Linux doc.
(Oh, and our DrJ of these forums also came out of Berkeley, so that's three good things.)

Hopefully, you realize that I'm not fighting with you over this--your only error is to assume that Linux documentation isn't an oxymoron.

Ok, yes, I'm bitter, I've spent all morning looking to find out some stupid little thing that should have been in the docs.
I feel SOO much better now.
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Old 29th May 2008
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ftp://ftp.cwru.edu/pub/bash/FAQ
http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bashtop.html
http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/bash.html

Just that the Absolute Bash-Scripting guide is one of the best commented with examples guide I fiund available on-line.
So, yes, it found a harbour under the TLDP project, so what?

Bash is GNU.
Reason why I now use yet another non-portable interpreter: {pd}ksh

Fwiw, when invoking a Bash|ksh|whatever script with sh scriptname
this has precedence over the sha-bang, good way to test for portability.
Details, details, I know
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Old 29th May 2008
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> "Our documentation doesn't have to be accurate, we'll just call you stupid when it doesn't work for you."

so, do BSD devs take the trouble to properly document their software because they got too much time on their hands?

btw, if you read the quote carefully you would note that their is an implicit heirarchy in the linux camp. namely: the developers are like god and users are treated like lowly mortals. BSD dev's generally are a _lot_ less pretentious.

there is a lot of other BS too associated with linux.

currently, i am using centos and debian, and i have to admit that i found centos to be very stable and all the *nix software just works.
IMO, centos is a lot like MS windows - its just a platform to run your software, nevermind that the OS itself is mediocre, uninteresting and overly complicated.

linux has its advantages: its free/open source, 'similiar enough' to unix to be able to compete with it, and very popular thanks to the massive hype and PR engine behind it. but i suspect that if one looks beneath the pretty gui exterior its still a mess.

phew! i have never written a post this big.

(note to linuxers: no hard feelings, this is just my opinion and its probably not even worth 2 cents. )
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Old 29th May 2008
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>the developers are like god and users are treated like lowly mortals.

To name the game, this is the usual UNIX behaviour you're talking off. It has something to do with the experience and some kind of tribute to it.
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Old 29th May 2008
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As I said, I was bitter when I wrote it. I felt so much better after venting that I take it back.
@ephemera, the CentOS people go to a great deal of trouble to keep it stable and working. (It's what I use at work, so I've developed an affection for it. *I* can put it down, but have to protect it in public.)

Seriously, a simple example. I wrote a howto on using VServer (similar to jails) in CentOS. However, it requires a modified kernel. This led to discussion on the CentOS doc list, because they are concerned about stability for their users.

Also, despite my earlier comments, the CentOS people are very conscientious about docs, more so than their upstream provider. I know you're not trying to start a war of course, but CentOS does stand out, in my mind, as one of the better ones.

Their wiki is starting to become one of my first points of reference these days--Max Hetrick's article on Nagios, Ned Slider's on various aspects of postfix both come to mind as useful for all admins.

I'm not just saying this because my KVM article is up there.

I could give a long list of things I don't like about it, of course, but in general, I'd have to say there is more concern about keeping a stable OS than there is with say, MS. You can also make minimal installations without too much trouble.

In fairness, I don't see the developer=DEITY and user=PEON in too many Linux communities. A certain amount of respect of course--the same that we give our developers in the *BSD community. If I write someone and say, you stupid person, how could you have done something so ignorant, then I suppose he or she would probably treat me poorly.
BTW, there's an RH bug report right now from Linus himself, having to do with trying to watch youtube videos (but not using flash).
In the course of a thread about it on Fedora forums, I finally, after all these years, was rickrolled. :-(

For those unfamiliar with the term, go to wikipedia.org and search rickrolled. (Note I put no urls in here, for those familiar with the term won't trust them.)
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Old 29th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post
As the quote says that the two things out of Berkeley were BSD and LSD...
OT, but LSD actually comes from Switzerland. It was first synthesized by Albert Hofmann, of Sandoz (in Basel), who recently passed away recently at the age of 102. His first acid trip was on April 19, 1943, which became known among aficionados as "Bicycle Day" as it was while cycling home from his laboratory that he experienced the most intense symptoms.
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Old 29th May 2008
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Of course, someone out of Berkeley would know that. <snicker>
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Old 29th May 2008
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But of course! It was in Chemical & Engineering News recently (a publication of the American Chemical Society, FWIW).

No, not *those* kind of chemicals!
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Old 29th May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
Anyway, I don't know if linux is getting worse ... But I do know these threads/rants are getting worse
Agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
I agree, the "fisher-price"-isms are just annoying, I mean, Why do people find flashy themes and large coloured text appealing?
They sell more VISA cards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
Hello,


Linux isn't getting worse - *BSD is getting better!

Now that is the mindset people need to grow hehe ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
I want vi to be vi and vim to be vim - is that too much to ask?!
This is my opinion as well... If I wanted vim, I would call for vi, although if I don't have vim I alias it to vi because I tend to type vim if I want vim, even if it's not installed >_>

Vim is a great editor but some things I find nvi works better for, like poking around the INDEX in /usr/ports.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
I believe vi on FreeBSD is nvi. It really pisses of my vim-loving co-worker that he can't get vim to work the same on FreeBSD as on Linux, and that he can't figure his way around nvi. I just tell him to use ee.
Considering that I actually used Vim to learn Vi (documentation), I find that kinda odd... I guess he's to used to his ~/.vimrc hehe.

I generally expect standard vi behavior out of any setup, except my own ~/.exrc and ~/.vimrc which could be dropped to the following lines

Code:
set showmode
map ; :


Quote:
Originally Posted by corey_james View Post
Despite what you may think, vi is an important part of unix and if you don't know it you're SEVERELY disadvantaged. It's one thing you can guarantee will be on the OS.

You could always use cat or dd
Every program has it's place, you can also count on every UNIX system having /bin/ed and /usr/bin/ex.

I don't care much for ed... pisses me off when I make a typo (?), but ex is quite nice if you need to edit things without a scroll back buffer and lack an editor with support for multiple windows/buffers/files/tabs/whatevers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
so, do BSD devs take the trouble to properly document their software because they got too much time on their hands?

btw, if you read the quote carefully you would note that their is an implicit heirarchy in the linux camp. namely: the developers are like god and users are treated like lowly mortals. BSD dev's generally are a _lot_ less pretentious.
I hate people that make you dig through source code just to find out how to use a program, at least providing a decent -h | -help | --help | /? should be mandatory.

Unless 95% of graphical programs, command line programs option switches are not always brain-dead easy to use.


I personally enjoy writing documentation in source (like Perls POD) or in a separate per-section file, but as long as someone writes decent docs !!

===

I don't have a problem with people that use bash for scripting, except when they write bash specific scripts and use #!/bin/sh like a dipstick.


I've never had any formal education in programming or computers, then again... Much less anything besides Reading, Wring and Arithmetic, maybe a little room clearing as well but you get the point ^_^


When I have a question about what I can do in a shell script, I use my main scripting shells manual page. Which is /bin/sh on FreeBSD.

Since most of my learning of Bourne Shell has been 'playful', I some times spot things in the manual or scripts that I never new were possible without upgrading to some thing more featureful like bash, korn, or ruby.


I could probably live with a Bourne shell from the day's of Version 7 or System III for scripting use if I had to, I've often thought about installing some of the older shell implementations in ports just for fun.


The relationship Linux has with GNU makes the concept Linux has bash. It's just that simple. People should probably look more at the "all linux and nothing but linux" mentality that some developers have, rather then just being bash scripters by habit ^_^.


When it comes to interactive use, all I really demand is line editing, tab completion on filenames, and command line history. So I generally prefer more modern shells ;-)
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Old 31st May 2008
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Could some one please direct me to a bigginers howto for vi or vi improved?
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Old 31st May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBSD View Post
I hate to high jack the thread...
Then don't.

Is it so difficult to start a new thread?
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Old 31st May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBSD View Post
Could some one please direct me to a bigginers howto for vi or vi improved?
http://sas-spidey01.livejournal.com/12253.html

it's from terryp
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Old 31st May 2008
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I found % vimtutor a very good introduction many years ago.
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Old 31st May 2008
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That reminds me... most of the second edition of that document is still in need of finishing and posting hehe.
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