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Old 19th November 2013
fstef fstef is offline
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Default help to understand snapshot

Hi all,
maybe this question is very stupid but...
I'm trying to learn OpenBSD and I can't understand snapshot.
Yesterday I've installed the snapshot for my architecture without problem but I've failed to install some package (vim, mutt…) because library not found, bad major.
I read the openbsd.org/faq/faq15 and according I make my system in sync.
So I've installed the OpenBSD snapshot from the 14-Nov-2013 12:24 bsd.rd, from the 18-Nov-2013 10:01 loongson directory, then I tried to install packages from 18-Nov-2013 10:01 packages directory. Result: I can't install packages because bad major.
Where is my mistake?
Many thank's
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Old 19th November 2013
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LeFrettchen LeFrettchen is offline
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Hi fstef, and welcome.

You should first edit your dmesg here, and tell us your architecure (i386 or amd64, I guess, but...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
I'm trying to learn OpenBSD and I can't understand snapshot.
Well, since you're a beginner with OpenBSD, I should highly recommend you to learn from a stable release.

The current release (snapshot) is much more complicated to use, and is recommended only for well-prepared OpenBSD user only.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
So I've installed the OpenBSD snapshot from the 14-Nov-2013 12:24 bsd.rd
And this part is not clear.
Did you performed a cdrom install, USB install, or something else ?
Did you strictly followed the OpenBSD install process/recommendations ?
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Old 19th November 2013
ocicat ocicat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
I read the openbsd.org/faq/faq15 and according I make my system in sync.
This was exactly the right thing to do.
Quote:
So I've installed the OpenBSD snapshot from the 14-Nov-2013 12:24 bsd.rd, from the 18-Nov-2013 10:01 loongson directory, then I tried to install packages from 18-Nov-2013 10:01 packages directory. Result: I can't install packages because bad major.
Where is my mistake?
It is imperative that the installed system & the ports tree be synchronized, however, snapshots are created from the head of CVS which is where development takes place. You may want to review Section 5.1 of the FAQ to understand the difference between OpenBSD's flavors.

There have been changes made to core libraries in the last few days which means that the libraries' versions have been incremented (bumped) to formally indicate their changed behaviour.

The packages made available to snapshots will usually lag behind the base system because it can take days to build (even when only a subset are built...) packages as opposed to hours for the base system. The problem you have experienced is that the core libraries expected by the packages you attempted to install required a different version than what was actually found.

Snapshots users are expected to understand that this situation requires either:
  • building packages locally & manually.
  • testing a more recent snapshot.
Since you are new to OpenBSD, my question to you is:
  • Is there a specific reason why you are using snapshots?
  • Will using -release or -stable fulfill your needs? Using snapshots (-current) means that there will be occasional mismatches that users will have to deal with on their own.

Last edited by ocicat; 20th November 2013 at 12:15 AM. Reason: add reference to -stable. oops.
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Old 19th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocicat View Post
[*] testing a more recent snapshot.
Question: Given, as you explained, that the snapshot is using newer libraries than those expected by the packages, did you mean to say:

[*] using a less recent (older) snapshot

?

(Or, alternatively, waiting for the packages to update to the new libraries, or building ones own packages as you mentioned).
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Old 19th November 2013
ocicat ocicat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdOp View Post
Question: Given, as you explained, that the snapshot is using newer libraries than those expected by the packages, did you mean to say:

[*] using a less recent (older) snapshot
A mismatch is occurring in some manner, & the likelihood of finding an older snapshot may be problematic as well. The best solution would be to wait until everything has stabilized or:
Quote:
(Or, alternatively, waiting for the packages to update to the new libraries, or building ones own packages as you mentioned).
Exactly.

Thanks for the question.

Last edited by ocicat; 19th November 2013 at 09:56 PM. Reason: correct verb tense
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Old 19th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocicat View Post
... the likelihood of finding an older snapshot may be problematic as well.
Yes, I wasn't sure that one would be readily available, so it was more of an "in principle" question. Thanks for clarifying, ocicat.
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Old 20th November 2013
ocicat ocicat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdOp View Post
Yes, I wasn't sure that one would be readily available, so it was more of an "in principle" question.
As a personal opinion, I don't believe going backwards is a good strategy. This may cause a number of kooky scenarios to arise, and more specifically, the developers aren't testing this direction. They are, however, testing against the head of CVS.

Mimicking their intended target is a much safer bet.
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Old 20th November 2013
fstef fstef is offline
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@LeFrettchen:
>Hi fstef, and welcome.

Thank you…

>You should first edit your dmesg here, and tell us your architecure (i386 or amd64, I >guess, but...).

Right now I've installed 5.4-release again so I don't have the output of the snapshot dmesg.
I run OpenBSD on a Yeeloong machine.

>Well, since you're a beginner with OpenBSD, I should highly recommend you to learn >from a stable release.

At the first time I've installed a stable release, but I need to input chinese characters and the scim package in the mips64el release repository won't work. A member from a chinese OpenBSD forum suggest me to install snapshot.

@ocicat:
>It is imperative that the installed system & the ports tree be synchronized, however, >snapshots are created from the head of CVS which is where development takes place. >You may want to review Section 5.1 of the FAQ to understand the difference between >OpenBSD's flavors.

What I understood about snapshot is: "Every few days, the OpenBSD team upload a release from the latest -current code to the mirror server. This an interim release called snapshot, which is identified only by the date of its release. A snapshot is simply the state of -current at a particular time."《Michael W. Lucas》

>The packages made available to snapshots will usually lag behind the base system >because it can take days to build (even when only a subset are built...) packages as >opposed to hours for the base system. The problem you have experienced is that the >core libraries expected by the packages you attempted to install required a different >version than what was actually found.

So, if I install the 2013/11/18 snapshot from a mirror and at the same time I need to install a package from the same snapshot repository I have high probability I can't due the bad major… It's correct?

>Since you are new to OpenBSD, my question to you is:
>Is there a specific reason why you are using snapshots?
>Will using -release or -stable fulfill your needs? Using snapshots (-current) means that >there will be occasional mismatches that users will have to deal with on their own.

As I wrote above, the mips64el scim package from the 5.4.-release doesn't work, at last in my yeeloong, so I tried to install snapshot.
In another laptop, in a virtual box I've installed amd64 5.4-release (virtual box don't support mipsel) to try to reproduce the problem but the scim input method work like a charm. BTW: the .xinitrc is the same.

I have posted this problem in the forum and following the jggimi suggestion I have reported the problem to the port maintainer. I are waiting to be answered.

For my need, follow the release, add the patch is enough, for now. I like OpenBSD OS, the project and the philosophy, I try to only use OpneBSD, do my "homework" but I absolutely need to input chinese characters and I need to find a solution.

Thank you all for everything
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Old 20th November 2013
ocicat ocicat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
So, if I install the 2013/11/18 snapshot from a mirror and at the same time I need to install a package from the same snapshot repository I have high probability I can't due the bad major… It's correct?
As intended, one should be able to install a snapshot, & immediately install snapshot packages from a mirror, & everything should be synchronized & work. Unfortunately, this does not always work -- & for the reasons already outlined.

The -current branch is where development occurs, & there are times when changes need to take place in core libraries which will require changes be made to the packages also found at the mirror sites. There will be times when a snapshot of the base system will not be synchronized with the available packages found at the mirrors.

If one encounters this problem, there are two ways to solve it:
  • Manually build the unsynchronized packages locally.
  • Wait until the source code to the base system & ports tree stabilizes. One can monitor the timestamps on the packages and/or one can monitor the project's mailing lists for discussions by the developers themselves.

    Personally, monitoring the mailing lists is preferrable. Simply looking at files' timestamps is living in a void.
I recognize that this may seem cumbersome especially for newcomers to OpenBSD, but this is the reality of using code in a CVS branch under active development.

I also have empathy for your needs of specific packages for Chinese character input. We have few on this site who have had the same requirements, so few here will be able to help with the specifics of these particular packages. What I have outlined is the reality of living at the head of CVS. These realities will not likely change, but as stated before, if the source to both the base system & available packages are in synchronization, then one should be able, in most situations, to install a snapshot of the base system followed by installing synchronized packages with minimal pain.

You may find that living in the world of -current snapshots to be overly complicated. Library mismatch problems should be temporary -- being solved in the next mass build of snapshot packages, but users of -current snapshots should be able to deal with these problems if they arise again. If you do not find this an acceptable reality, there are other members of the *BSD family which can equally serve your needs.
Old 21st November 2013
fstef fstef is offline
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@ocicat Thank you (and thank to everyone try to help me) for your explanation, now is clear.
I've a lot to learn about OpenBSD, so for now I follow the -release and try to find a solution for my problem… maybe is time to change my hardware.
Old 22nd November 2013
thomasw_ thomasw_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
@ocicat Thank you (and thank to everyone try to help me) for your explanation, now is clear.
I've a lot to learn about OpenBSD, so for now I follow the -release and try to find a solution for my problem… maybe is time to change my hardware.
Uhm, fstef, why change your loongson hardware if 5.4 -release works on it? I think I am missing the point of doing this.

Using -release has the advantage of being in sync with the release packages, and using the pkg_* utilities is one of the fantastic aspects of OpenBSD in my experience. They just work. That said, building utilities manually from ports is not a brutal experience for the most part; FAQ 15.3.1-11 clearly lays out the basic set up. It's handy if you want a specific flavor or if you do choose to use snapshots.
Old 23rd November 2013
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@thomasw:
>Uhm, fstef, why change your loongson hardware if 5.4 -release works on it? I think I am >missing the point of doing this.

>Using -release has the advantage of being in sync with the release packages, and using >the pkg_* utilities is one of the fantastic aspects of OpenBSD in my experience. They just >work.

Well, the problem is: the scim package from the loongson repository packages doesn't work, at lest in my machine. I know work in other machine, in virtual box, but not in mine.
I wrote an email to the package maintainer about this problem, but I think he can't reply to my, because you know : "what's wrong whit you? the code is fine"(M.W. Lucas).
The funny thing is I can read the scim message tell me it is running but I the ps(1)
command can't find the scim daemon run.
But I can't do nothing, and if I can't to write chinese characters the machine is useless.
Old 23rd November 2013
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Quote:
I wrote an email to the package maintainer about this problem, but I think he can't reply...
He may not have an answer, or may not have seen your Email. He may not have your architecture available.

Posting to the ports@ mailing list may permit others to assist you. See http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html
Old 24th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
I know work in other machine, in virtual box, but not in mine.
Can you provide more information?
  • The other machine was what architecture, & why was Virtual Box being used?
  • What version & flavor of OpenBSD was used?
Quote:
The funny thing is I can read the scim message tell me it is running but I the ps(1)
command can't find the scim daemon run.
Can you explain this further?
  • x11/inputmethods/scim is a daemon that is not starting?
  • How is it to start? Does this require the pkg_scripts variable be set in rc.conf.local(8)?
  • Did this daemon start under Virtual Box?
Old 24th November 2013
fstef fstef is offline
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@ocicat:
>The other machine was what architecture, & why was Virtual Box being used?

The other machine is a MacBook Pro of a friend, so x86 architecture, and I can't install OpenBSD (my friend is not happy…)

>What version & flavor of OpenBSD was used?
I've installed OpenBSD 5.4-release amd64.

>Can you explain this further?

>x11/inputmethods/scim is a daemon that is not starting?

Yes and now. This is the first thread I opened in the forum, I think is well explained:
http://www.daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8206.

>How is it to start? Does this require the pkg_scripts variable be set in rc.conf.local(8)?
Yes, it require the dubs_daemon and the avahi_daemon, and I have in my rc.conf.local(8).

>Did this daemon start under Virtual Box?

The scim daemon in Virtual Box start and work like a charm.

The configuration and setting in the yeeloong and in the Virtual Box is the same, but wen X start in an xterm I can see the scim daemon process, in the yeeloong I don't have this process.
Old 24th November 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fstef View Post
This is the first thread I opened in the forum, I think is well explained:
http://www.daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8206.
We have two discussion topics here:
  • (the need for) synchronizing snapshots & ports/packages.
  • problems with the scim package across the amd64 & yeelong architectures.
fstef has kindly provided a link to the original discussion above. Responders (including me...) should direct their comments to the appropriate thread.

scim comments should return to the original thread.
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