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Old 2nd July 2008
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This is a BSD/Unix forum ... and even here 50% of the visitors use Windows ...
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Old 2nd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
Probably 70-80% of code in Cisco routers are from BSD. Most embedded device that you find anywhere from washing machine to your car run BSD code.
I suspect you are basing your assumption simply on the friendliness of the BSD license to business ventures, but these numbers are way off. A lot of commercial embedded work is done using vendors like Wind River, Green Hills Software, QNX, LynuxWorks, etc. As for Cisco's IOS, it is a monolithic proprietary layer which is not based on any of the *BSD's.

You may be thinking of Juniper who does base the underlying "OS" found on their routers on FreeBSD.
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Old 2nd July 2008
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Originally Posted by revzalot View Post
For the unix minded, this a great era of Unix we are in now. We have so much flavors to play with and Apple of all companies has done an awesome job disguising unix in their OS. I'm glad they're going the Unix way because it just goes to show that Unix can also be used for non technical people. I remembered I started with DOS and I thought it was cool but when I discovered unix, it was like wow! I was in awe of the power, control, and complexity and I'm still learning new things everyday. I really don't care on the popularity as long as unix is here to stay and continue evolve.
I agree with you about Apple. I have some respect for Apple and some feelings of dislike for the too. Plus, they have cleverly disguised it. Some of the Unix elements to show. For example, the memory management system obviously has to be visible to the user. The lack of a registry among other things also make the experience great. There's just enough of Unix on the surface to give Mac OS X a good deal of credibility as a better alternative to Windows. Apple's use of Unix shows how flexible it is and how much longevity it has. I'm happy that Mac OS X is Unix, but many of the users don't do it justice. I know that bit, and it doesn't make me happy...oh well.

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Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
This is a BSD/Unix forum ... and even here 50% of the visitors use Windows ...
Well, that's sort of expected though. I'd imagine some of those users are just curious. Some of them might just be starting their Unix journey. I surfed forums much the same way when I started hunting back in late 2003.

QNX is a Unix. I'm not familiar with the others.
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Old 2nd July 2008
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>QNX is a Unix.

It's UNIX-like and today as much UNIX as Solaris is BSD (it was a fork in the early 80s - SunOS).

>Well, that's sort of expected though.

I don't think many users with Windows are looking for a UNIX like BSD or Solaris or they even know the term. But some users of this forum probably have to use Windows at work or they are using it at the laptop. I have to use Mac OS X, well so we will see sometimes Safari in the stats. I have been a member of DesktopBSD team for several years and I can tell you something: people are looking for the term Linux or desktop-os most of the time. Nobody asks about BSD, most of them even think about DesktopBSD/PC-BSD as some kind of a Linux-distro.
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Old 2nd July 2008
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Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
>QNX is a Unix.

It's UNIX-like and today as much UNIX as Solaris is BSD (it was a fork in the early 80s - SunOS).

>Well, that's sort of expected though.

I don't think many users with Windows are looking for a UNIX like BSD or Solaris or they even know the term. But some users of this forum probably have to use Windows at work or they are using it at the laptop. I have to use Mac OS X, well so we will see sometimes Safari in the stats. I have been a member of DesktopBSD team for several years and I can tell you something: people are looking for the term Linux or desktop-os most of the time. Nobody asks about BSD, most of them even think about DesktopBSD/PC-BSD as some kind of a Linux-distro.
That's interesting to know.

Yes, I do know about that. I hold out hope, but I like it this way. The BSD community is in a way, quite conservative and fairly small, and BSD users are quite a bit more experienced in Unix than Linux users generally are.
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Old 2nd July 2008
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>The BSD community is in a way, quite conservative and fairly small,

Yeah I like it, but it's time to break it. Would be a pity to see the decline of such a nice free UNIX derivative.
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Old 3rd July 2008
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Originally Posted by scottro View Post
That's the biggest point (to *me*) about the numbers game. The more people using Linux and BSD, the more likely hardware makers are apt to say, gee, well, OK, we better make this part usable for them.

In all fairness, this more likely means available to Linux only without mucking around and more likely then not in the coming years to be binary only, like many drivers for Windows NT or OSX.


As stupid as it is, if most of the world would make like extremely stubborn GNUs and refuse to use any non-free as in 'freedom of speech' software, the world would be a much better place because companies would have to comply or go bankrupt.


Well, once society rebuilt itself from the inevitable collapse from removing most computers in the world from active service, the world would be a better place hehe lol.




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Every time something didn't work, it would have been a major issue---as we all know, family members are the worst users.

I know that problem and feeling by heart ... And I'm single :\
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Old 3rd July 2008
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Hello,

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Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
I can tell you something: people are looking for the term Linux or desktop-os most of the time. Nobody asks about BSD, most of them even think about DesktopBSD/PC-BSD as some kind of a Linux-distro.
I would imagine that the vast majority of computer users think that there are three types of computers - those that run Windows, those that run Mac, those that run Linux. They are oblivious to other operating systems and probably even more oblivious to other hardware platforms than the i386 (though many Mac users will probably still be familiar with the ppc).

Think of what most computer users use their computers for: word processing, spreadsheet, presentations, web surfing, email, multimedia. They could care less about the underlying systems that make their modern computing possible. They could care less about the UNIX servers that allow them to download song after song and movie after movie. For the office applications, they only care about whoever they send it to being able to open it. They use their computers as a tool to work or play with and don't care how that tool is made or alternative tools.

I therefore think that *BSD popularity should be measured among those who don't merely use computers as a tool for something else, but among those whose pursuit is computers. And I think that UNIX popularity among that demographic would be at least 50% - but I am no statistician.
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Old 3rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ_coder View Post
I would imagine that the vast majority of computer users think that there are three types of computers - those that run Windows, those that run Mac, those that run Linux. They are oblivious to other operating systems and probably even more oblivious to other hardware platforms than the i386 (though many Mac users will probably still be familiar with the ppc).
Outside of *nix or programming related circles, I've generally found most of the world to live in a "whats an operating system?" world -- or one in which computers means

Dell, Gateway, HP, etc running Windows XYZ and Mac suxors.


Actually find smart people and you will probably find people that understand what a punch card is, whether or not they used one.


(maybe my experience is this way because I mostly deal with non tech savory bunches rather then people who could out think me any second of the minute)


At the end of the day, most users just want it to freaking work without having to kick the sucker and could care less.




I do agree with the rest of your post though JMJ_coder.
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Old 3rd July 2008
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>I would imagine that the vast majority of computer users think that there are three types of computers - those that run Windows, those that run Mac, those that run Linux. They are oblivious to other operating systems and probably even more oblivious to other hardware platforms than the i386 (though many Mac users will probably still be familiar with the ppc).

It depends on your surrounding environment. Of course I have something to do with beginners (DesktopBSD; teaching), but beginners who at least do know what they want. So apart from my mother I have usually nothing to do with people using their computer like some Gucci-bag. Even the Mac OS X users I work with are more scientifically orientied :-)

But it doesn't matter, important is their wish for knowledge. Then you can do something more and push them to a proper direction (Linux, BSD). In the end I just care about a *free* operating system, whether it's Linux or BSD. 'Free as in BSD' is my credo and proprietary software really sucks :-)
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Old 4th July 2008
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Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
This is a BSD/Unix forum ... and even here 50% of the visitors use Windows ...
I have 5 computers running all the time. 4 use FreeBSD. The one I'm on now is a laptop with Windows. I just did that a month or so ago and the only reason is so I can watch Netflix and Hulu online, along with the occasional YouTube someone sends me when I go out of town. I have cygwin on it where I spend a lot of time.

Otherwise, I would have left FreeBSD on the notebook and that is the same reason I think you'll find a lot of Unix people running Windows.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Just to continue my thought. I consider Unix/BSD to still be the professional's operating system while Windows is the consumer operating system. Just like on a construction site you'll find Mac trucks and big Ford's doing the heavy lifting; not the little pickups or vans.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
I consider Unix/BSD to still be the professional's operating system while Windows is the consumer operating system.
I think this is not right. Windows has professional tools that simply are not available on *nix. For example, try to find advanced image processing tools, proteomic spot-picking routines (and computational biology in general), good PDF manipulation tools (and that does not include pdfedit), electronic laboratory notebooks and lab automation, or even numerical simulation packages. Some are available on *nix, but the coverage is pretty spotty.

I'm not defending Windows, but *any* application area has good Windows software for professional applications. *nix cannot claim this with any honesty.
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Old 4th July 2008
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In general, UNIX and UNIX-like OS's are more of a server OS, while Windows is more of a desktop OS.

This doesn't mean you can't use Windows as a server, or UNIX as a desktop, but it's not what it's optimized for.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Agreed. I'm afraid that *nix gaining desktop traction is pretty much a lost cause (even though I use it personally).
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Old 4th July 2008
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That's stupid, UNIX isn't a single entity, a lot of Unix systems are designed for workstations... and Unix has always been and still is used on high power workstations.

If any of you have seen behind the scenes documentaries of movies, a lot of the people working on the CG effects are using Unix systems. (If you have the Transformers movie, watch disk 2.).

I use OpenBSD on all my desktops, people may think it's strange.. but It's not, if anything it's improved my skills maintaining the OpenBSD servers at work.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
If any of you have seen behind the scenes documentaries of movies, a lot of the people working on the CG effects are using Unix systems.
And how do I get those tools?

If one has the money to write software for one's application of choice, sure, go for *nix. If you rely on existing applications you are not well served by *nix on the desktop unless you use only comparatively simple software that is covered by OSS. Linux does have some more sophisticated things, but the coverage is still spotty.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Hello,

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Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
That's stupid, UNIX isn't a single entity, a lot of Unix systems are designed for workstations... and Unix has always been and still is used on high power workstations.
Yup, can anyone say CDE.
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Old 4th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
And how do I get those tools?

If one has the money to write software for one's application of choice, sure, go for *nix. If you rely on existing applications you are not well served by *nix on the desktop unless you use only comparatively simple software that is covered by OSS. Linux does have some more sophisticated things, but the coverage is still spotty.
Unix has been historically proprietary, those applications are for in-house development, but that doesn't mean "Unix isn't a suitable operating system", It simply means you need to seek out the software you require.. because.. there is bound to be someone else with similar needs taking appropriate action. (Shut up and hack!).

And why do you keep mentioning Linux?

Linux be damned!
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Old 4th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
That's stupid, UNIX isn't a single entity, a lot of Unix systems are designed for workstations... and Unix has always been and still is used on high power workstations.

If any of you have seen behind the scenes documentaries of movies, a lot of the people working on the CG effects are using Unix systems. (If you have the Transformers movie, watch disk 2.).

I use OpenBSD on all my desktops, people may think it's strange.. but It's not, if anything it's improved my skills maintaining the OpenBSD servers at work.

I said desktop, not workstation, which is not the same.
I also didn't say unix os's are totally useless on the desktop, just that this is not what most unix systems are designed for.
I said desktop, not workstation, which is not the same.
I also didn't say unix os's are totally useless on the desktop, just that this is not what most unix systems are designed for.
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