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Old 5th July 2008
DrJ DrJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
By the way, there's GNU Octave, which aims to be compatible with MatLab. It's really nice and easy to use, in my opinion.
Right -- a friend of mine (Rawlings) wrote that package. Well, at least the initial versions, as it has grown substantially since he started it.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Have a look at UWIN
http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/
(internal development, now on Common Public License, is almost UNIX but they don't care about certification)
further,
WinXP and lower can download SFU for free from MSFT,
Server 2003, Vista Business|Premium have the SUA, just need to be enabled (both bsd44 based).

No need to dual boot a laptop to get both worlds.
Need Linux, have a look at coLinux: any Linux.
So, you boot Windows? Big deal
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Old 5th July 2008
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Originally Posted by Oko View Post
You do not know what are you talking about.
*sigh*

I do know what I am talking about, but this discussion is getting too personal. My initial response was prompted by the claim that Windows is for consumers, whereas *nix is for professional applications. My claim simply is that there are many more professional applications, on the desktop at least, on Windows than on *nix. That's true for OSX too, but it still does not have the penetration into many more specialized areas that Windows has. It is certainly true for the areas where I practice, and in spite of that I still use *nix for many things.

I grant freely that *nix can be sufficient for many endeavors, and if it is, more power to you. It simply is not for the kinds of things I do. And whenever I mention this, the chorus comes out of the woodwork, saying "you can too do this" or that, while overlooking the integration of the whole package.

For me, that is making 2D and 3D CAD drawings, solving rather large sets of PDEs (say, a few hundred) using the CAD drawings as the geometry input, optimizing the device through this, submitting the drawing to a clean room and to a laser fabricator to make the gizmos, obtaining real-time laboratory data (including photomicrographs and videos) to get the device performance, abstracting items from and rearranging PDF documents, writing the grants, and submitting grant applications through grants.gov. There's lots of other tasks involved, but this is the core of what I and my people do.

The software available for Linux can *almost* do the entire chain, but not quite -- there is nothing that I am aware of that is really comparable to SolidWorks or AutoCAD, its integration into PDE packages and acceptance by various fabrication shops. Solaris on SPARC is in the same boat, but not on Intel architectures. BSD has nothing that is native (well, the OSS stuff works, but that is not enough), and Linux emulation does prove to be a challenge (see the lists for constant references to getting Mathematica to run, for example).

And none of these other than Windows or OSX really work that well with grants.gov, though some have gotten the software to run in Wine (*ugh*). (The Citrix backdoor does not work that well, either).

I agree with the earlier post that one should use the tools one needs using the lowest-cost route. It is also important to keep in mind that time has value, something that anyone who is responsible for paying employees' paychecks knows all too well.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Well, having unix/bsd/linux userland is not really important, higher priority is in kernel.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvlamb View Post
Have a look at UWIN
I use it and like it, but it is rather unstable for me when I use it with the X11 package from xming (or whatever it is called). The X packatge that comes with UWIN is pretty slow and dated.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Originally Posted by richardpl View Post
Well, having unix/bsd/linux userland is not really important, higher priority is in kernel.
I don't use the kernel, I use applications.
Applications is what is important, the kernel is just a facilitator for applications.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
*sigh*



For me, that is making 2D and 3D CAD drawings, solving rather large sets of PDEs (say, a few hundred) using the CAD drawings as the geometry input, optimizing the device through this, submitting the drawing to a clean room and to a laser fabricator to make the gizmos, obtaining real-time laboratory data (including photomicrographs and videos) to get the device performance, abstracting items from and rearranging PDF documents, writing the grants, and submitting grant applications through grants.gov. There's lots of other tasks involved, but this is the core of what I and my people do.

The software available for Linux can *almost* do the entire chain, but not quite -- there is nothing that I am aware of that is really comparable to SolidWorks or AutoCAD, its integration into PDE packages and acceptance by various fabrication shops. Solaris on SPARC is in the same boat, but not on Intel architectures. BSD has nothing that is native (well, the OSS stuff works, but that is not enough), and Linux emulation does prove to be a challenge (see the lists for constant references to getting Mathematica to run, for example).
First of all I mean no offense by my previous post. I was strongly disagree with your ideas but I would not attack anybody personally. You obviously talk from your professional experience I talk from mine.

Yes there is NO AutoCAD for Unix and if I had my own shop I would run Windows for CAD. AutoCAD is arguably one of the best applications written for Windows OS. Guess what. When the NASA needs CAD, 2D, and 3D animations do you think that they use Windows. NO, they use Silicon Graphics (Irix in the past now Linux) but I guess price tag of couple hundred thousand dollars for complete systems is little bit to much for an average Joe
We have quite a few of those at U of Arizona but you have to deserve the access to them.

I also happen to work at the math Department (U of A) which is world known for its applied mathematics and although my field of expertise is Dynamical Systems based on ODEs I happen to know people who work on PDEs, Fluids,
Turbolence, and similar things. For small numerical computations of the type couple hundred PDEs they use Linux clusters (DeLL PCs). For big one they use Cray 3 and Los Alamos PPC based machines (we have joint program with them). I guess you are well aware that Cray 3 doesn't run Windows.


I have to repeat something that somebody already said. People needs to get the job done and they will run whatever it is necessary, cost effective, and do the work. They do not care about BSD vs GPL (unless there are afraid of legal problems) , they do not care if it is Windows, Unix, or VMS. They do not care if it is MIPS, Sparc64, Motorola, or i386. All they care is to do the work.


P. S. By the way my friend who is one of the principal coders of GAP (he is German mathematician but lives here in Arizona) uses OpenSUSE for the past ten years. He used NetBSD in 90s but it was not user friendly for him. I also never said that BSD is very popular as a Desktop, Workstation platform. See one of my first posts. I still have to see anybody at my department running OpenBSD like me on his desktop. It is mostly Ubuntu and Debian around me.

Last edited by Oko; 5th July 2008 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Guys, let's all calm down. One of the reasons that Unix has been gaining marketshare is because some people couldn't fit their needs with Windows or didn't feel comfortable with it. As much as we respect those people for our commonalities, we have to respect those people who continue to use Windows as well because they don't want to switch for one reason or another or can't switch. After all, F/OSS is about choice.

In my opinion, Unix rivals Windows in every area except gaming and possibly ease-of-use depending on the flavor. Specifically, as far as CAD is concerned, the Ashlar-Vellum catalog is available on Mac, and their software is quite popular. For a competent free alternative, BRL-CAD is available for Unix. In addition, VariCAD, which is compatible with AutoCAD, is available for Linux as well. I guess it comes down whether you're willing to use something that isn't a mainstream solution, but compatible nonetheless.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
First of all I mean no offense by my previous post.
Then you should avoid telling someone that they do not know what they are talking about. Chances are very good that I have been solving PDEs longer than you have been alive.
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When the NASA needs CAD, 2D, and 3D animations ... they use Silicon Graphics (Irix in the past now Linux) but I guess price tag of couple hundred thousand dollars is little bit to much for an average Joe
NASA has the budget for a bespoke application, and they have been developing these since the 1960s.
Quote:
I also happen to work at the math Department (U of A) ...
Check to see what the faculty in Chemistry, Biology, EE and so forth are using, both personally and in their labs. I know many of them rather well, actually (I was at ASU for many years, and set up some collaborative grant applications with the photochemistry/optical sciences people at UA).

To be clear, I have never claimed that Windows is an outstanding system. I don't really care much for it, but it is boatloads better than running VM/CMS on a 3270 EBCDIC terminal. I do claim that the range of specialized professional applications is unmatched, and that this will not change in the foreseeable future. To claim otherwise only speaks to a lack of familiarity with the marketplace, and the scientific/engineering marketplace in particular. Of course these are bested by bespoke applications for the really really tiny, high-performance niches most of which have been developed continuously over many years. That too will not change.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker
I don't use the kernel, I use applications.
Applications use kernel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker
Applications is what is important, the kernel is just a facilitator for applications.
I said that having unix utilities is completly irrelevant if kernel is in simple words - crap.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
Guys, let's all calm down. One of the reasons that Unix has been gaining marketshare is because some people couldn't fit their needs with Windows or didn't feel comfortable with it. As much as we respect those people for our commonalities, we have to respect those people who continue to use Windows as well because they don't want to switch for one reason or another or can't switch. After all, F/OSS is about choice.

In my opinion, Unix rivals Windows in every area except gaming and possibly ease-of-use depending on the flavor. Specifically, as far as CAD is concerned, the Ashlar-Vellum catalog is available on Mac, and their software is quite popular. For a competent free alternative, BRL-CAD is available for Unix. In addition, VariCAD, which is compatible with AutoCAD, is available for Linux as well. I guess it comes down whether you're willing to use something that isn't a mainstream solution, but compatible nonetheless.

And except prof. graphics and prof. audio - okay the Mac is UNIX somewhere below the surface, but Windows has got a plethora of applications and hardware important for most work in the real word and even the creative business! And yes we do have the Adobe line of applications and some other goodies, but in the end it's just a fraction of the Windows world - and I'm not telling you of some home applications. It doesn't count what you think is available as viable option, it's important what application and hardware we need to get the work done. And in the end you'll find heterogenous environments most of the time - some Windows machines for special applications and hardware, some cheap UNIX-machines for the hard work (internet, intranet, render queues and so on and yes even some Apple machines. That's the reality out there in the wild. Fanboyism is something for the pleasure at home. My home is my castle and my personal data center ;-)

So in the end I can say 'to hell with the wanna-be UNIX machines from Apple' at home, but I have to work with those at work. I can even say 'to hell with shitty Debian', but again I have to cope with it at work. At least we're using Solaris too, thanks God ;-)
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Old 5th July 2008
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Originally Posted by silverback011 View Post
The bottom line is that we have to get work done and publish results. We use whatever will help us achieve this the best. In general we don't care about the software or who makes it as long as we can afford it and it gets the job done. We want it to work as quickly as possible as cheaply as possible.
that reminds me of an article i read somewhere where this guy David Chisnall talks about the difference b/w an astronomer and a telescope builder (though in a slightly different context):

Quote:
There’s a difference between a telescope builder and an astronomer, of course. A telescope builder is likely to know more about the construction of telescopes and less about the motion of stellar bodies. But both will have a solid understanding of what happens to light as it travels through the lenses and bounces off the mirrors. Without this understanding, astronomy is very difficult.
For an astronomer, celestial bodies are studied using a telescope. A telescope is an important tool for a scientist—but is merely a tool not the focus of study.
here the telescope builder can be a metaphor for a computer programmer or IT professional and the astronomer a metaphor for a scientist.

i am just glad the scientists are using (or atleast try to use wherever they can) linux/unix.

Last edited by ephemera; 5th July 2008 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 5th July 2008
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It doesn't count what you think is available as viable option, it's important what application and hardware we need to get the work done.
What? This statement doesn't make any sense. Of course it matters what you think is available as a viable option. You generally will consider all options before making a final decision, which suits your budget and needs equally.

Heterogeneous environments are fine if they fit your needs the best.

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That's the reality out there in the wild. Fanboyism is something for the pleasure at home.
And, if you had read the first paragraph of my post that you quoted, then you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement. Remember, I never really gave commentary on Windows. I don't use it because I don't need to or want to. I steer away from that.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Hrrm, I think at this point on the Fedora or Ubuntu forums, the thread would be closed by moderators (hint, hint).
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Old 5th July 2008
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Or we could just appeal to all participants to take a step back, take a deep breath, and leave it alone at least for a few days ... So that things can calm down ...
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Old 5th July 2008
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Hrrm, I think at this point on the Fedora or Ubuntu forums, the thread would be closed by moderators (hint, hint).
maybe moderator intervention if this goes out of hand but please don't close it just yet.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
What? This statement doesn't make any sense. Of course it matters what you think is available as a viable option. You generally will consider all options before making a final decision, which suits your budget and needs equally.

Heterogeneous environments are fine if they fit your needs the best.



And, if you had read the first paragraph of my post that you quoted, then you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement. Remember, I never really gave commentary on Windows. I don't use it because I don't need to or want to. I steer away from that.

>What? This statement doesn't make any sense.

Are you working in such an environment or are you just dreaming at home? If we have a certain task to fulfill we are looking for the proper tool, not the other way around. There is no dogma to fulfill like 'be free or die'. So we're a not going for Apple, we're looking for the proper tool and it can be Apple, but most of the time it is something PC with Linux, BSD or even Windows on it. Do you get it?

>then you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement.

Young padawan you should think first then speak, it's nothing to boil up your blood it is just a common experience, an analysis of some part of the real world. I'm not married with my hardware or software, I'm married to a nice woman - so maybe there are some hot tempered sayings, but nothing personal if you aren't a stock-holder of some company ;-)

>Fanboyism is something for the pleasure at home.

>That's the reality out there in the wild. Fanboyism is something for the pleasure at home. My home is my castle and my personal data center ;-)

You are able to read sentences in context? Yes? Then please do so, it's nothing about _you_ it's a common saying on the topic.


@scottro, at this point there is nothing to close imho, just some realistic point of view.
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Old 5th July 2008
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Are you working in such an environment or are you just dreaming at home? If we have a certain task to fulfill we are looking for the proper tool, not the other way around. There is no dogma to fulfill like 'be free or die'. So we're a not going for Apple, we're looking for the proper tool and it can be Apple, but most of the time it is something PC with Linux, BSD or even Windows on it. Do you get it?
You're looking for a proper tool. Sometimes there are multiple tools that will allow you to do what you need to. Hence, you have viable options. Therefore, you consider the cost and whatever other factors before you purchase. Note, once again, that I never said a single thing about Windows.

What did I say two posts ago that's so different from what you're trying to say now about practically fulfilling your needs?

Quote:
Guys, let's all calm down. One of the reasons that Unix has been gaining marketshare is because some people couldn't fit their needs with Windows or didn't feel comfortable with it. As much as we respect those people for our commonalities, we have to respect those people who continue to use Windows as well because they don't want to switch for one reason or another or can't switch. After all, F/OSS is about choice.
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Last edited by ninjatux; 5th July 2008 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by Oliver_H View Post
And except prof. graphics and prof. audio - okay the Mac is UNIX somewhere below the surface, but Windows has got a plethora of applications and hardware important for most work in the real word and even the creative business!
So what can you make on Windows that you can't with OS X? (I am just wondering.)
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnz View Post
So what can you make on Windows that you can't with OS X? (I am just wondering.)
An .EXE

But seriously, in regards to how popular UNIX is, I like FreeBSD a lot.

Sure, you can make arguments that apples are better than bananas (They're not, BTW.) but people are ALWAYS going to argue.

It's nothing to get excited about. I was born in 1986, Didn't start using FreeBSD until probably 5-6 years ago, back in my high school days. I think it quite suits my needs on a system that is powerful enough to run Vista without a hitch.

I run into a program that I cannot run on FreeBSD. Do I troll the forums until everybody knows my anguish? Do I rend the shirt from my chest and scream into the night?

Yes, but for other reasons (don't worry, they're equally asinine.)

I've got about a hundred (i.e. 9) PCs here from various upgrades over the last 10 years. 1 runs FreeBSD, one runs OpenSuSE, 2 run Windows and the others are just sitting there collecting dust.

Variety is the spice of life!

The most important thing to remember is that computers can be coerced into talking with eachother. It's by no means impossible to run what you want to run and still accomplish things.

Unless you run your mouth :O.

I find it amusing that no one is here to offend anyone and you still have the moderators gunning for you :O Just remember, if they get a taste for human blood, none of us are safe!
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