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Old 6th July 2008
BSDfan666 BSDfan666 is offline
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Technically, You can make a PE executable (EXE) file on Mac OS X if you build a cross-compiler...
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
Technically, You can make a PE executable (EXE) file on Mac OS X if you build a cross-compiler...
You win this round, BSDfan666!
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Old 6th July 2008
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And actually, there IS a cross compiler, it is on the official Apple web site as well, I think it was for Ada... something like Gnat Win32 Cross compiler.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by Sunnz View Post
So what can you make on Windows that you can't with OS X? (I am just wondering.)
Here's one example, though you may think the application obscure and not quite what you had in mind:

http://www1.dionex.com/en-us/data_ma...re/lp3268.html

Click on the specifications link at the bottom of the page for details.

This is rather typical, in that it is control and database software for scientific instruments.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
Here's one example, though you may think the application obscure and not quite what you had in mind:

http://www1.dionex.com/en-us/data_ma...re/lp3268.html

Click on the specifications link at the bottom of the page for details.

This is rather typical, in that it is control and database software for scientific instruments.
I was wondering if you could explain to me one thing. It seems to me, based on your posts, that you are an avid and very, very competent Windows user.
What do you try to achieve by hanging on a forum for Unix enthusiasts (OK there are few professionals around here but most of us a hobbyist like me).
Windows needs no popularization. 99% of all Desktops and probably close to 50% of servers run it.

Are you just trying to annoy us? If you are unhappy that mail server at your
University runs Linux you should take that issue with your IT department.
If you are unhappy that some of you colleagues do not use word for publishing (I am mathematician so 100% of us do NOT use MS Word) that issue should be taken to editors of the journals.

I am way too old to be a graduate student but even if I was the one you could not bully me into using the tools I am not comfortable with. I am competent enough to code the application which I need if there is none already. I have been using Unix for too long (since late 1980s) not because it was free or not proprietary but because the alternative was VMS and lousy
OS/360. I do not hate Windows, its users, and M$.

I just love Unix like most people on this forum and you can not question man's heart.
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Old 6th July 2008
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I am way too old to be a graduate student but even if I was the one you could not bully me into using the tools I am not comfortable with. I am competent enough to code the application which I need if there is none already. I have been using Unix for too long (since late 1980s) not because it was free or not proprietary but because the alternative was VMS and lousy
OS/360. I do not hate Windows, its users, and M$.
Ditto, although in my case, I don't think the code part applies. I can do scripting and some Java, but hope to learn C/C++ in college. Then I do a real job and volunteer my time with these projects, but you said it very well.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
I was wondering if you could explain to me one thing. It seems to me, based on your posts, that you are an avid and very, very competent Windows user.
Well, I'm a Unix head. I have used BSD for over 25 years, and it is wired into my fingers. So I use it where I can, but there are many places where I cannot.
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What do you try to achieve by hanging on a forum for Unix enthusiasts (OK there are few professionals around here but most of us a hobbyist like me).
Windows needs no popularization.
Simply because I use FreeBSD for about 80% of the things I do. Many everyday tasks are done quite nicely on *nix.
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If you are unhappy that mail server at your
University runs Linux you should take that issue with your IT department.
I *am* the IT department. As well as the president and stock-room clerk. My servers run FreeBSD, FWIW.
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If you are unhappy that some of you colleagues do not use word for publishing (I am mathematician so 100% of us do NOT use MS Word) that issue should be taken to editors of the journals.
I use groff for most things, and latex for submission to journals. I don't care much for Word, though I can do simple things with it. I have to, since I collaborate with people in the outside world, and that is all that most of them know.

You probably know that journals are extremely inflexible. You submit in the formats they accept, or your article will be rejected. A few will take PDFs, but most want source in either Word or latex. That's workable enough for me.
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I just love Unix like most people on this forum and you can not question man's heart.
I'm with you on that.

Simply, many people get taken with the idea of OSS, and think it should be placed on every desktop and server, and should be used for everything. That is more common in the Linux community, but it is pretty common here too. That just is not going to happen any time soon. There are many parts of the world that most people who post here simply are not aware of. Taken together, these are large and important areas.

I admit that I get irritated when people look down their noses at Windows (or whatever OS you choose). For me they are tools to accomplish certain tasks, and not the end in and of themselves. If an application runs only on Windows, well, OK. If they can run on BSD I'd prefer it, but beyond serving and simple desktop stuff there really isn't much. That's OK too.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
I was wondering if you could explain to me one thing. It seems to me, based on your posts, that you are an avid and very, very competent Windows user.
Wow, all I can say is "you must be new here". Otherwise, you'd know better, as you'd know DrJ as one of the biggest Unix geeks on this board, who just happens to be forced into using Windows systems for some things at work.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
Here's one example, though you may think the application obscure and not quite what you had in mind:

http://www1.dionex.com/en-us/data_ma...re/lp3268.html

Click on the specifications link at the bottom of the page for details.

This is rather typical, in that it is control and database software for scientific instruments.
You are right, it is kind of obscure, but I did a quick google and this come up:

http://www.johankool.nl/software/peacock

It is free and open source and it is for OS X, I am not sure if they do the same thing though.

Quote:
It seems to me, based on your posts, that you are an avid and very, very competent Windows user.
I was just wondering, to be competent in Windows doesn't stop you from being competent in Unix/BSD right?
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Old 6th July 2008
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The program you cite does one of the many functions of Chromeleon. There are a few things to keep in mind for these sorts of tools: a typical biotech or pharma company has hundreds of these instruments. Heck, even my very small company has an HPLC (it runs under NT of all things). They are also the analytical backbone of the chemical, petroleum, polymer, consumer products, food and environmental testing companies. They are even used in wine making and quality control. There are likely more of these instruments installed than the sum of all the BSDs world-wide. I'd wager that 98%+ are controlled by Windows applications. The only ones that are not are those that are old enough that they have no separate control computer, and use on-board devices where the OS is not clear.

For those in biotech or pharma, the data that is stored (which the program you mention cannot do) has to be certified to comply with FDA standards. Otherwise, the data are not sufficiently tracable, and you the company loses your billion dollar investment into your drug because the FDA will not accept your data.

Yes, this is a niche, but it is a huge one.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oko View Post
...a forum for Unix enthusiasts (OK there are few professionals around here but most of us a hobbyist like me).
Do we have a poll showing that?
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Windows needs no popularization. 99% of all Desktops and probably close to 50% of servers run it.
Actually, global server usage is 23% for Win servers.
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Old 6th July 2008
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I admit that I get irritated when people look down their noses at Windows (or whatever OS you choose). For me they are tools to accomplish certain tasks, and not the end in and of themselves. If an application runs only on Windows, well, OK. If they can run on BSD I'd prefer it, but beyond serving and simple desktop stuff there really isn't much. That's OK too.
I'll use Windows if I have to. I have Windows Vista Basic installed on my MacBook Pro just for gaming and if I ever need it for anything else. However, I think the solution for nonexistant applications is out there. I understand that it's just not feasible to code your own applications, but that's where WINE comes in. I think the WINE project has done a great job getting the 1.0 and now the 1.1.0 versions out. Now is that time for Codeweavers to move away from providing a easier to use monolithic WINE. Codeweavers should work on providing WINE-based wrappers for specific programs. I'd imagine that coding an entire API and maintaining compatibility with all applications known to work from releases to release and adding support for more applications at the same time is quite a difficult task. Either Codeweavers does it, or the actual application makers use WINE to port their applications over at least to Linux as Google has done.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
... that's where WINE comes in.
Ugh. I principle I agree, but in practice that is a painful road. I have found wine to be the most maddening program to use in all of OSS. Applications work one day, and not the next when the program is "improved." Many years ago I had Word 2K and Acrobat 4 running under Wine. Neither do any more. IE is unstable for me, but it is useful once in a while.

Codeweavers' support will help with some mainstream applications, and certainly I will welcome what they put out when they release Crossover on BSD.

For many of the things I do a virtual machine just works better. Of course I only do the simple things there, and no games, AutoCAD or things like that. Those are just done better on a Win box.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
Do we have a poll showing that?
No I do not. You are welcome to start one and prove me wrong.

Speaking of Win servers it was obvious an exertion. The same goes for desktops. Obviously OS X is not Windows and
it has market share bigger than 5%., Linux probably have 0.5% of market share on the desktops.

Last edited by Oko; 6th July 2008 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by phoenix View Post
Wow, all I can say is "you must be new here". Otherwise, you'd know better, as you'd know DrJ as one of the biggest Unix geeks on this board, who just happens to be forced into using Windows systems for some things at work.

I do not recall my exact registration number but I though that this was couple months old forum? Are you saying that it exists for much longer than that?
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Old 6th July 2008
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Heh. Well, actually, this is the descendent of bsdforums, which was apparently abandoned by its adminstrator. Although the two remaining moderators put up a heroic fight agianst the spammers, without the admin's help, it became too much, hence these forums were started.

As phoenix said, when I read that, I too said to myself, Wow. Errm, yes, I think that Dr J has proven he isn't a troll over the years--not to mention that along with BSD and LSD, he too came out of Berkeley.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by scottro View Post
Hrrm, I think at this point on the Fedora or Ubuntu forums, the thread would be closed by moderators (hint, hint).
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Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
Or we could just appeal to all participants to take a step back, take a deep breath, and leave it alone at least for a few days ... So that things can calm down ...


I think this thread is healthy if not productive, although you could say I prefer to limit my involvement... That's for my own tastes not because it's out of hand or anything.




One thing people have to remember is this is not face to face chat, it is an internet forum -- it's easy to take things a different way then was intended and the like. That's probably one reason at times I tend to be, ehh more careful with my choice of words.




As long as people don't take stuff personally and assume the best intent, the thread will probably stay health.


And any really stubborn people can always meet up later IRL and have a brawl if necessary >_>
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
Ugh. I principle I agree, but in practice that is a painful road. I have found wine to be the most maddening program to use in all of OSS. Applications work one day, and not the next when the program is "improved." Many years ago I had Word 2K and Acrobat 4 running under Wine. Neither do any more. IE is unstable for me, but it is useful once in a while.

Codeweavers' support will help with some mainstream applications, and certainly I will welcome what they put out when they release Crossover on BSD.

For many of the things I do a virtual machine just works better. Of course I only do the simple things there, and no games, AutoCAD or things like that. Those are just done better on a Win box.
I have to give you on that one big tamps up. Even though things like Xen might make running a single operating system on a single machine thing of the past I tend to (probably as OpenBSD user) believe that if you need an application which runs only on specific OS you should use that specific OS
and not mess with virtualization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
If they can run on BSD I'd prefer it, but beyond serving and simple desktop stuff there really isn't much. That's OK too.
So what is the "complicated" desktop? I thought that a desktop computer was a computer capable of running Web-browser, an email client, and an office suite + little bit of multimedia. Since when the bioengineering software used in Wine industry is must application for the desktop. The same goes for AutoCAD and MatLab. I have not noticed that the Desktop computers sold in the WalMart come with those application.

The only real deficiency of your FreeBSD desktop is that has no flash plug in
and arguably drivers for USB video cameras so you can not do VoIP with video.

Obviously people who write application are catering their customers and if
wine producers happen to be predominantly Windows users the application
written for them will run on that platform.

You join this thread by arguing that any Unix based application is incapable of solving PDEs (although for practical purposes they can not be solved anyway and even if
they could be solved that definitely would not be using numerical computation over 10^60 rational numbers) despite the fact that you know all too well that most simple numerical algorithms were coded in 50s and 60s using Fortran and God knows what operating system. Now you
are arguing that lack of popularity of Unix among desktop users is due to
the fact that there are no Unix specific application for Wine production.
I do not get it.

Most Respectfully,
OKO

P.S. By the way my grandfather was for 70 years ( he lived to be 87) producer
of fine Serbian wines and the plum brandy called Shljivovica. I do not recall
him ever needing a calculator let alone Desktop computer to manufacture those

Last edited by Oko; 6th July 2008 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
Ugh. I principle I agree, but in practice that is a painful road. I have found wine to be the most maddening program to use in all of OSS. Applications work one day, and not the next when the program is "improved." Many years ago I had Word 2K and Acrobat 4 running under Wine. Neither do any more. IE is unstable for me, but it is useful once in a while.

Codeweavers' support will help with some mainstream applications, and certainly I will welcome what they put out when they release Crossover on BSD.

For many of the things I do a virtual machine just works better. Of course I only do the simple things there, and no games, AutoCAD or things like that. Those are just done better on a Win box.
I personally don't like to reboot, so I welcome additions to the virtual machine software such as accelerated graphics. At the moment, unity/coherency modes in VMWare, VirtualBox, and Parallels actually offer a decently integrated environment for running Windows in virtual machines without the usual constraints.

In principle, WINE is great, and I completely agree with you, but like I said that Codeweavers shouldn't really concentrate on providing a souped-up version of WINE. They should develop versions of WINE that are compatible with only a single application or a handful of similar applications, then sell these wrappers of sorts. I'd imagine that some times certain applications in WINE break because of fixes applied for other applications. Either that, or Codeweavers should start marketing WINE as a starting point for companies to port their applications, maybe make some sort of porting kit as TransGaming did with Cedega for Mac.
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Old 6th July 2008
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Originally Posted by Oko View Post
So what is the "complicated" desktop? I thought that a desktop computer was a computer capable of running Web-browser, an email client, and an office suite + little bit of multimedia. Since when the bioengineering software used in Wine industry is must application for the desktop. The same goes for AutoCAD and MatLab. I have not noticed that the Desktop computers sold in the WalMart come with those application.
I don't claim to be a "complicated" desktop user, from what I have seen though, there are little things that make people switch back to Windows... it is those funky custom smilies in MSN; that other super cheap prepaid VoIP plan that they have joined that happens to use their own proprietary protocol and client software that only runs on Windows; they brought a new web cam without any checking with compatibility with the OS... it is the "what is an OS" type of people, and it is just getting them to use Linux, it is not even BSD.
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