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That's entirely up to the individual to decide, I don't tend to evangelise Unix nor Linux myself for that matter, but many times I see other people try to do so.
Anyway, what I was trying to say was that there were no one big killer application so to speak for "the desktop", it is one or two of the little things that the average joe tend to taken for granted... this was a response to the question of what are the "complicated" features of a desktop, which I would say, "none", it is just MS's monopoly market what a lot of people didn't even know about. Quote:
http://mac.sofotex.com/download-134628.html
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She sells C shells by the seashore. Last edited by Sunnz; 6th July 2008 at 11:00 PM. |
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Personally I don't care what OS people use, as long as they are happy with it, as long as it doesn't drive me crazy, and as long as it doesn't cause problems for me. For example, 90-98% of software I need works under FreeBSD. 10-15% would or might be probmatic to use on a non POSIX-related system. If it would be the otherway around, I'd bloody well have to use something else for my OS, port the apps, or become someone who virtually only runs code they wrote, which is far from practical these days. Quote:
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I've debating starting such a poll out of curiosity for a few weeks... but have not (yet) out of consideration that it might be taken rudely by some. Maybe it is time?
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. |
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A poll of how many Windows servers there are on the Internet? Or who is a professional?
It doesn't mean that much. I am a professional, but I don't consider myself more knowledgeable than many who aren't. Also, my job these days is almost entirely Linux (CentOS) not BSD, so the fact that I'm an IT professional doesn't mean that much on these forums. Although, as we all know, as much of any such sysadmin job (vs. developer) concerns the applications that run on the system, the distinction is perhaps less important than it could be. Last edited by scottro; 7th July 2008 at 12:00 AM. |
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Honestly I think this is a dead end for this discussion. The point more was that there are many applications that together have a large markets where there is no *nix, or OSX in this case, penetration. The chromatography instruments are one example. There are many others -- it just happens that I know this area. |
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"UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity." MacBook Pro (Darwin 9), iMac (Darwin 9), iPod Touch (Darwin 9), Dell Optiplex GX620 (FreeBSD 7.1-STABLE) |
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You would get a kick out of visiting Mondavi in Napa as an example of how the business has changed. Yes, they do produce good wines in addition to their better-known bulk ones. I don't think use of temperature-controlled, stainless-steel fermenters was common in the older days, but they are now. It is a pretty high tech business. And yes, I know slivovic well. Quite a different product from wine, but quite enjoyable. I'm thinking of having a go at it from a very productive plum tree we have. |
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I will still argue that Windows is a consumer operating system while Unix is the professional system. The argument is not based on who uses which or what software runs on either. The thought behind the argument is that Windows was created for the every day user. Made simple for the every man user at the expense of functionality and stability. Sure, many top-notch professional, scientific programs run on Windows because Windows is everywhere and people think Windows is the only computer to design programs for. Windows desktop is not designed for the professional environment. I mean, just look at it! But even as Dr. J has said, people who know how things work do not like Windows as an OS. Windows, in fact, becomes an eventual destination for marketing reasons alone, whether for money or because people look at you funny if your program doesn't run on Win. The reality is, Windows is more difficult to code for, is more expensive to code for (cost of tools and the OS), and it's a moving target (OS changes, documentation changes, documentation moves and can't be found!).
Sorry for the lack of paragraphs but I'm bouncing between things to do today. As far as the aforementioned poll goes, I think it should be carefully worded. Do we count professional IT people who only use FreeBSD as a hobby as a hobbyist? How do you rank someone who can outcode Brian Kernighan but is a carpenter by day? |
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I guess, without the bsdforums history, it would seem that he is a Windows-user pretending to be a Unix user. However, nothing could be further from the truth. |
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I am not so sure. Already today at least 20-30% Linux (not Windows users) use web-based email services like Gmail instead of email clients. At least Gmail unlike Hotmail offers people to download the mail via IMAP server. You can do text processing using Google documents without having any programs installed locally. In all fairness, I have to repeat something that was said before. 80% of time 80% of Desktop computers run screen saver and those work pretty well on any operating system. Quote:
Slivovica my friends form Cleveland had very hard time convincing police that I am brewing famous Serbian beer. Best, OKO P. S. I have to correct myself. My grandfather produced VINE and he had no clue what is wine as he never had the desktop computer Last edited by Oko; 7th July 2008 at 04:56 AM. |
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@drhowarddrfine
For me, I've always felt that UNIX is designed by developers for the developers and the rest, is just business. If I recall, didn't the great inventors create unix for their own reasons at first? The groff software that DrJ uses, isn't it very much a descendent of business? I'm very sure that the early roff and things could have been implemented on whatever DECs OS offerings were for the various PDP-* microcomputers were in use but did the softwares creator want to do that? Various UNIX systems provide better development tools then any other system I've encountered, while I'm sure many people here would have a _lot_ more weight behind making such a statement then I can claim. The fact still remains, for me nothing has been as good! A real system should be self sustaining shouldn't it? FreeBSD for example (aside from no svn client, yet) is fully capable of being used to develop software built for users and working on the system itself. Windows was created by business for business reasons. They wanted to make money, they didn't give a damn about operating system design -- 23 years later it still shows (imho). The average home user was probably lucky to have an internet connection once upon a time, let a long a bloody computer. Now, why should they need a Ph.D. to use a computer? My first exposure to computers was via MS-DOS 2.0 on my brothers Tandy 1000, until I started "poking around" a Windows 98 machine many years later, I always considered computers a thing for people in lab coats not Joe blow from cocomo. UNIX is beautifully designed according to my sense of engineering, because that is what the developers made it and no one else could have done that. Windows? Is just what sells to the masses. An operating system for people that don't know computers, don't want to know computers, and don't care about "Source Code" because most of them don't know what it is, don't want to know what it is, and can pay someone else to make the software they want -- as long as in the end it does what they want without more trouble then they care to pay for. I guess you could say that I view unix as a system for developers and windows as a commercial product. To me, professional usage means taking care of the business and craft that separates one from people outside of the profession, for which they are usually paid for doing. A carpenter knows a lot about working with wood, I don't know jack about it, things relating to carpentry makes that person unique in ways that I am not and gives them a bond to others of like-mind. Quote:
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Well, I suppose a proper (read fair) distinction would be are you into computers because you want to or because you are paid too. Some "professionals" love computers. Others, well want to set sale for greener pa$ture$ in the end or maybe work on their golfing. Quote:
Websites that require flash for general usage, can kiss my rebel... eh wait, I can't say that here -- just look up Doc Holiday in Wyatt Earp ;-) Quote:
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What Oko has described is actually what most people I know use their computers for, aside from work/school related stuff and "pleasure" (games, p2p, porn, etc). My mother only uses her computer for Internet Explorer and Outlook Express, probably doesn't know what they are, and wouldn't care to hear about it either -- as long as it does what she needs, she's happy. And I'm happy as long as she doesn't try my patience to often.... No operating system should be considered within terms of the/a "Desktop" imho, just a desktop in the sense that people tend to use it at a desk ;-) I use my computer for things different from my mother and friends use theirs, Oko uses his differently then mine, DrJ uses his differently then Oko and so on. People can get blue in the face talking about "desktop" stuff and still keep going, it just doesn't serve any real point these days unless you are selling pre-made desktops !
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. |
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Regarding the law, yes, I have to look into that too. CA does permit small-scale production of wine (we have Zinfandel planted that will be fermented in the fall) and beers, but distillates may well be different. Last edited by DrJ; 7th July 2008 at 02:51 PM. |
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Regarding the earlier comment on stability and API, I've not had any troubles with W2K or XP stability, and by and large they are more stable than my FreeBSD desktops. There is one glaring exception: XP crashes when you use a network printer, and you lose a connection anywhere along the way. I had a dodgy network cable, and rather than store the output until the device becomes available, the computer crashes. That ins mind-numbingly stupid. On the BSD side, the system itself is very good (if you overlook the early 5.x releases). However, X11 recently has not been particularly stable, and Wine causes occasional crashes. Other things do too. It is not particularly heinous, and it recovers gracefully, but it really is less stable than my W2K development box, which has never, ever crashed. On APIs: Windows may change it a lot, but they bend over backwards to ensure backwards compatibility. I can still run Office 2K on the latest XP box. Solaris has done the same traditionally, but you can't on BSD or Linux. There is no equivalent of a gettext upgrade. Quote:
How people use computers really varies a lot. Certainly OSS should cover the common uses like those mentioned, but to restrict what a desktop might be to only those applications seems rather limiting. |
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"UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity." MacBook Pro (Darwin 9), iMac (Darwin 9), iPod Touch (Darwin 9), Dell Optiplex GX620 (FreeBSD 7.1-STABLE) |
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I share DrJ's experience, I have never had any real stability problems with Windows 2000 or Windows XP ... Only when machines are infested with "malware" or certain other appications (i.e. Norton/Symantec antivirus) do systems become unstable.
I never used Vista or any of the Windows servers, so I can't comment on those.
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UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. |
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I don't think stability is an issue for either BSD or Windows. I can't speak about Linux or Solaris, since I have just not used them enough.
For some numbers, the dev box has never crashed on either BSD of W2K. My BSD server does maybe once every nine months or so. My main box, about once every four months. All of these are older, dual CPU, ECC/Reg, SCSI drive boxes. The main data acquisition computer is a consumer-grade XP unit; it crashes maybe once every four months too (Ethernet cables willing). I don't think this is anything to worry about. Then again, I have not gotten a virus on Windows for over six years, so maybe I am just lucky. |
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As some persons signature said, "Linux is for people who hate Windows, BSD is for people who love Unix."
For me, I hate Windows and love Unix.. I kinda collect old Unix systems, and various installation media. I hate operating systems like Windows because they hide a lot from the user... |
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What I love about unix is its simplicity meaning it treats every object as a file and its complexity providing the user great flexibility to do one task in many different ways. You can run it with a gui or not depending how powerful your hardware specs. Can tweak it with a couple of keystrokes and I hate clicking the mouse too many times.
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Hello,
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-- now back to your regularly scheduled sobering debate.
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And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) |
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