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Standards by any name have their uses vermaden, from Linux or not.
Unix has been around since before the cows came home, there is a lot of stuff a foot since there is no single omni-present implementation available (for a really long time). Any note worthy limitations on file names have been gone for ages but we still call it /usr instead of /user, because everyone assumes it is named /usr, even though it's a stupid way to save one letter (now're days). By contrast, different countries have different ways of writing the date. If people agree on writing 2008-05-14, at least you don't have to check for every bloody countries format (or worse every possible one!). It limits ambiguity that otherwise has to be dealt with. Since people don't always conform to their countries normal date/time notation, programs that allow specifing the desire format are good, ones that don't know the format but let you tell it are better. I for one write time/dates in ISO and NATO styles, because I need to communicate with people form different countries, and I ain't taking an off by one margin error for people being late :-P Quote:
When helping people, I generally believe in giving both options (cli/gui) where appropriate, such as on PC-BSD you can generally assume some thing about the GUI tools available, same on Ubuntu, etc. Under FreeBSD, Linux, or Unix Brand Foo, that is usually harder. One reason I never learned much about GUI way of administrating my systems: why learn 20 different ways to dick with user and groups (different guis) when you can just use tools from the command line that pertain to most OSes. I am a firm believer that ANY THING worth doing should be doable from both the command line and a graphical interface when doing so is within reason. I.e. controlling the network settings via either method is the right thing to do but using some thing like GIMP designed for real tty's would probably be overkill. However... From a business point of view. I don't care if it has a GUI or not, if someone is getting paid, they should know what the hell they are doing !!! Learning to use a Linux box at the command prompt is not hard for most people that can read English. Being competent enough to manage one that'll cost a company big buck$ every second it doesn't work right is a bit tricker I'm sure. I'm not a professional user of Linux or BSD although I know more then just my way around. If I had to hire someone, fine by me if they prefer the GUI over the CLI and can still get the job done properly. But they better know what the frig they are paid to know ! Especially if they want a raise later ;-)
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. |
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mindset
I work in a fairly big corporation on the AS/400 side. Our IT department has got a Win farm, linux cluster & unix here & there. Most of the Win & linux developers think of a server as the box beneath their monitor. And their concept of multi-user server workload is Alt-Tab.
Graphics have their place. And the place may well be on the client workstation. I just can't agree with a real server consuming processor resources for displaying graphics. And I hate the mouse. It's such an impediment to accomplishing real work.. Long live green screen, or whatever color your tty is |
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>Could it be that the learning curve required to get a BSD installation up and working as a desktop system is more steep
-Debian -Gentoo -ArchLinux -Slackware etc. But otherwise, there are systems like DesktopBSD and PC-BSD. >Could it be that many BSD users start with Linux to learn a lot of concepts and then expand their horizons to the world of BSD? In my experience it's most of the time out of frustration. >Could it be that as a community aggressively markets and grows it will inevitably attract novices faster than it can breed experts? Well this is a problem for really small communities like this $BSD-community, but it's no problem at all for the huge Linux community. There you'll get lot of experts and novices at the same time. No marketing at all on the other hand is fatal too.
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use UNIX or die :-) |
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Otherwise I think it depends on what kind of server you are running... if you are running a rack in a data centre with more than millions of hits everyday, sure, running a GUI you never seen is bad... On the other hand, my home "server" sits on a 30" monitor and is constantly running a full blown desktop environment, because I want to use it to watch movies, write documents, and surf the web too... pretty much doing the job of a desktop, while serving my home network as a NAT firewall/router in the background, having 5~6 house mates surfing YouTube/FaceBook/whatever wirelessly... I mean, it does this all fine, since the work load isn't very high, and I can have a dedicated workspace with a few xterm opened showing top, pftop, squid, and status like that, it all works very well. Other than those case, I have seen that on BSD mailing lists that people install X just so they an run a few xterms to show status or what not... it all depends on what you are actually serving I suppose. Quote:
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She sells C shells by the seashore. |
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Thank you for the compliment... I just switched my mother in law to Ubuntu, and I'm very glad for her it is simple. And as for the linux community: I'm very glad to help people with the most stupid questions. When I started, I also had stupid questions, and they were (almost) all answered. I've been helped and now that I'm able to answer some simple questions, I'm glad to do it. What's wrong with that?
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A wise physician I know, on a Linux forum made an interesting statement after watching a thread that degenerated.
He commented on the old popular rap song, "My Milkshake" For those unfamiliar with it, you're not necessarily missing that much, but the lyrics are, "My milkshake brings the boys to the yard "And they're like, 'It's better than yours,' "D**n right, it's better than yours, "I'd teach you but I'd have to charge." It struck me as frightenly appropriate. Here's a question for those of you with your anti-Linux sigs. Ok, Linux is not Unix. (Neither are the BSDs, officially, but we're all so elite we know that's wrong. I mean after all, FreeBSD is one of the systems in O'Reilly's Essential Unix Administration--oh, wait a sec, so is RedHat--well, we're Unix anyway--no, that's U-N-I-X, NOT E-U-N-I-C-H-S, you fools.) Anyway, Mac OS X is an official Unix. Now, you need to hire someone to run your mail server on FreeBSD, say postfix. Your two choices are the Linux admin who's been running postfix on an RH server (not using webadmin) and a Mac OS X expert, who's worked at the genius bar in an Apple store and knows all about Mac OS X, an official Unix. Which do you hire? Sorry, folks, it's a hot day, I'm not in a good mood. However, as that role model for all of us, Michael Jackson sang, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror..." |
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>Which do you hire?
Are we talking about the UNIX trademark (aka Mac OS X) or the UNIX heritage? The latter is something about quality and reliability. So you should ask, why are you using $BSD? If you want to hire someone, well it's probably a Linux-guy, because it's a Linux-world. But if we are talking about academical coherences then it's $BSD and its qualities.
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use UNIX or die :-) |
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The posts here have been waaaay too short... guys, PLEASE explain your opinions in greater detail
I think the OP's original example about GUI on a server is a relevant one- if you need a GUI on a server, then just use Windows or Ubuntu and turn your brain off. You won't need it.
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Network Firefighter |
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To short? Remind me to drop this thread from my list >_>
While I personally feel a GUI on a server is dead weight, there are times when it makes sense to have one. A SOHO situation where the poor sap that actually knows how to power off a computer properly is in charge of the box but he/she doesn't eat, sleep, and eat servers for breakfast but still needs a decent file or print server for example. One thing I like about FreeBSD, I can pop in the disk, go to custom install, grab the minimal needed file sets (i.e. base, kern, what ever I want), boot it, setup and turn it into what ever I want from there. PS: The desktop machine pressed into service as my file server runs OpenBSD, access is via SSH only.
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. Last edited by TerryP; 28th May 2008 at 08:28 AM. |
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Well I'm happy to report that some users are seeing my point. I am trying to be diplomatic and logical about the whole thing, and thankfully another *BSD user has joined me on the forum who will back me up from time to time. It's always more credible coming from more than one person.
Still I am appalled at what has happened to the general Linux community. Sunnz asked if they just install the GUI on the server. The answer is yes, they do the server install with the server distibution and then apt-get someting called ubuntu-desktop. I haven't personally used it so I don't know what it loads but it looks like a full blown GUI. If this was a desktop distro I wouldn't have been so shocked but this is Ubuntu's server edition, and they even state on their web site that not loading a GUI is for security. Looks like the more popular it gets, the worse people will abuse it. -Tim |
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>Looks like the more popular it gets, the worse people will abuse it
Of course, but it's their will, you cannot avoid abuse while denying certain possibilities. If there is freedom, somebody will abuse it - but I don't think anybody would be lucky about denying freedom just to ensure the proper use of it ;-) The Linux community is a huge community, you will find even some nerds like in $BSD, you'll find anything - so there is no 'versus' there are just different people anywhere.
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use UNIX or die :-) |
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Actually, in that list of sticky links posted the other day, there was one excellent entry in the myths section. The myth, *BSD is better than (insert other system)
This is user opinion only. Some people will put a GUI on a server. When you call someone foolish, you've gone a long way towards closing their mind. If they're inexperienced, give your reasons why you don't think it's best practice, and let it go. They can choose to listen to you or not. If you think they're foolish, well, you stated your opinion. If you come in saying, Only an idiot would put a GUI on a server, then, especially when you DON'T know what Ubuntu-desktop is, (nor do I--for all we know, it's a minimalistic GUI for certain possibly appropriate uses--probably not, but the important point here is that you're saying, "I don't know what it is, but it must be wrong." It's possible, for example, that it's a home server for family files, that will double as a desktop and they need some sort of awkward hybrid. Just for example. Judging from your posts here, however, I'm sure that you are giving intelligent, diplomatic arguments. Without looking at the thread, if I say, "You're doing it wrong," I'm doing exactly what I say not to do with the Ubuntu desktop thingie. |
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By the way, I went and looked at that thread of Windependence's, figuring I'd add support if necessary. He's doing fine.
As I suspected (from Tim's posts here) he was polite and is making his points well. It's not a flame war. Actually, even those disagreeing aren't disagreeing with vehemence. |
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Over here, I was not saying they were stupid or anything like that, just making an observation that from the last time I was on a Linux only board, I noticed a marked difference in the attitude, and it kinda reminded me of Windoze admins I know, and I was just a little shocked, that's all. -Tim |
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I was soooooo tempted to post something like nano???? What a wimp. Real men use ex. (Not that I do, but....)
However, fortunately, I'm at work and don't have time to play. It was a letdown though--I went to look at it early this morning thinking, "Dey better not mess wit' my maaain man Tim," (best Ali G voice for the preceding) and you had no need for help or support. One thing I should say for those forums--in general, most disagreements are respectful of the other side's view. Considering the volume of those forums, it's impressive and their moderators deserve compliments. (As do ours here, of course.) |
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Hello,
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When you go to the furniture store, do you care how a dovetail joint is created, or do you just want a table? There are many fine woodworkers who could carve a dovetail in their sleep with hand tools, but most people just want the table and want to not to break. How many people can work on their car? They don't care! They just want to push the gas pedal and have the car move. If the car breaks down, they don't care why, they just want it fixed - NOW!! They don't want the mechanic to explain the innards of the valve train or tell them how to fix it, they just want it fixed. Even those who might have some inkling that they can fix it themselves (hey, I'll save me some money) just want a quick tutorial on how to fix it and don't want to know the fundamentals of automotive engineering. And they will call with the most inane questions and just want a quick answer (and I have heard some whoopers as a mechanic and parts clerk). So yes, I think the majority of those who use computers (machine-independent) just want the stupid contraption to work without knowing or caring how or why.
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And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) |
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Hello,
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And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) |
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JMJ, that was an excellent analogy. We've all heard the car one so often that it rolls off us, but the table one is new to me, and an excellent illustration.
Most people use the computer as a means to an end while we who are into computers, and that can include some skilled MS admins, see the computer as the end in itself. Ubuntu is offering itself as a solution to those who see the computer as means to an end. If they succeed, it will be good for all of us, simply for hardware support. |
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