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Old 17th January 2015
azdps azdps is offline
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Default Asking questions about OpenBSD

I like OpenBSD quite a bit, and I'm learning and learning. Even after countless tutorials, countless OpenBSD man pages I still can't seem to figure out certain things. Currently I'm trying to work out getting NSD and Unbound working right. Probably have another year or so of reading to go before I figure it out. Guess that probably related to my IQ. What I really don't like is that I have somewhat of a fear asking of questions on this forum. I'm talking about the ones that may seem simple and straight forward to most OpenBSD users but for some reason it's significantly difficult for me to work out. I completely understand the goals of the developers. But why have a forum such as this available, and discourage newbies when a question is asked? If your an expert on OpenBSD why discourage people on this forum? Why not just not just ignore a post a new person has posted if it offends you or may seem trivial or the question you think is ridiculous? Without donations OpenBSD recently almost shutdown their doors. Please in the future if you have nothing worthwhile say then just ignore the post. I almost feel like opening my own forum for OpenBSD users who can ask any question they like without getting a slap in a face, and then a turn in certain direction that may lead to nowhere for that newbie. Anyways, to all the grandmaster OpenBSD guru's out there please relax and give people a break.

Edit: This post was generously created by a moderator who pruned it from the following thread http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8580

Last edited by azdps; 17th January 2015 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 17th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd-keith View Post
Just reading through this topic does give the impression that OpenBSD is still an unfriendly place to go - however I know better. Not so long ago, you would be just told to read the documentation, now it is much more friendly - they actually tell you which part. :lol:
I have found that the OpenBSD community is a very welcoming place if you're willing to do your own heavy lifting (reading, thinking, and initial problem solving). If I am in a jam and I have exhausted the available, ample documentation then the community members are more than willing to lend a hand.
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Old 17th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
...I have somewhat of a fear asking of questions on this forum.
This forum is both unofficial and is very much newbie-focused, and most of us here are just users.

You shouldn't be afraid to ask questions. However, it's always better if you are able to do some basic research before posting.*
Quote:
I'm talking about the ones that may seem simple and straight forward to most OpenBSD users but for some reason it's significantly difficult for me to work out.
Those are my favourite questions to answer, because I don't have to do any significant research to answer them.
Quote:
...why have a forum such as this available, and discourage newbies when a question is asked?
I cannot speak for others, but I try to answer all questions with an understanding that everyone was a newbie, once. And I try to be encouraging in attitude, even when the answer to a question is negative. I'm not always successful, but I try.
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If your an expert on OpenBSD...
I've never claimed to be one.
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Originally Posted by hitest View Post
...the community members are more than willing to lend a hand.
I also seek help from others when I'm stumped by something. None of us can intrinsically know everything there is to know.

* http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=596
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Old 17th January 2015
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OK, wow, this thread has come back to life!

I'm going to put this out there: I have been using Linux and BSD as a mere hobbyist since about 1999-2000. I don't know jack about coding/programming, I don't work in IT, and I don't have any degrees in CS-related fields. I have run through the gamut of Linux distro-hopping, I've installed Debian, Arch, Slackware, etc., successfully. I've learned a ton by trying, failing, trying again, RTFMing, and asking intelligent questions. I've installed OpenBSD several times, and find it to be one of the simplest installers around. I see no point in obfuscating the process via GUI.

I have never felt like anyone here, or any other Linux/BSD forums, has treated me rudely or poorly. But I have seen this when someone comes along and their first post runs along the lines of "please can you add this or that feature, I can't be bothered to RTFM or ask intelligent questions, me want MOAR pointy, MOAR clicky, blah, blah, blah!?"

Seriously, ask yourself why you want to use OpenBSD (or any BSD), what you're willing to learn and do IF you are serious about it, and if you can't come up with a good, honest answer, go back to Linux-land.
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Old 17th January 2015
azdps azdps is offline
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Quote:
OK, wow, this thread has come back to life!
Yes I decided to visit this forum once again. This forum could be thriving like FreeBSD's.

Quote:
Seriously, ask yourself why you want to use OpenBSD (or any BSD), what you're willing to learn and do IF you are serious about it, and if you can't come up with a good, honest answer, go back to Linux-land.
JWJones seriously ask yourself why you needed to respond to this.

I've purchased both the latest Absolute OpenBSD and The Book of PF from Amazon.com. I generously sent Michael Lucas and email letting him know of spelling errors and such I found while reading his book. I just submitted an issue to the mailing lists reference an issue with the unbound.conf man page that developers decided should be changed. I know exactly what my needs are for using OpenBSD... and seriously I don't need to assess that. Like I said before, I like OpenBSD but have run into issues I can't seem to work around or solve on my own. Some of you on this forum who reply to posts need to take a step back and remember OpenBSD developers have bills to pay. Please just stop with the rudeness because your pushing the newbies away for no good reason. I myself would love to see OpenBSD thrive, in addition to this forum.

Last edited by azdps; 17th January 2015 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 17th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
This forum could be thriving like FreeBSD's.
This forum fully meets my BSD needs.
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Old 17th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
JWJones seriously ask yourself why you needed to respond to this.
Weird, I thought I was replying to this thread:

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8580

Was it closed/split into this one?

Anyway, my apologies, my reply was intended to target the OP of the thread I referenced above. If you are doing all the things you have said, you are probably on the right track.
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Old 17th January 2015
ocicat ocicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
Weird, I thought I was replying to this thread:

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8580

Was it closed/split into this one?
Yes. The initial post in that thread advocated the poster's desire for a graphical GUI interface. This thread asks about the configuration of nsd(8).

The two subjects are different.

We find at this site that most members mine the archives for information on specific subjects. To make this simpler, we ask members to keep to a single subject as directed by the initial post in the thread. Technical discussions inherently have their own difficulty, & this is compounded when the subject is unfamiliar, & English isn't readers' first language. To minimize the ambiguity, we ask respondents to keep to the topic as initialized by the original poster.

This isn't to say we wish to hamper discussion. We encourage discussion, but we ask that members consider what discussion has already taken place. If a member wishes to take conversation in a different direction, please do so, but start a new thread clearly stating what it is you wish to discuss.

This is discussed in the forum rules.
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Old 17th January 2015
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No worries, thanks ocicat. Makes perfect sense.
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Old 19th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
But why have a forum such as this available, and discourage newbies when a question is asked?
I saw your two threads: dhpd.conf and packet filtering. In both threads you were helped and got a lot of good info and feedback. You did not respond to the last posts from the users who helped you in either of those threads, nor did you state as to whether you solved your problems or not. I fail to see where you were discouraged?
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Old 25th January 2015
azdps azdps is offline
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No I wasn't referring to myself as being the discouraged. I've actually been helped out quite a bit here. My post was pruned from the following thread:

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8580

I was just making the point that it was unnecessary to discourage others who ask questions. There's alot of unnecessary rudeness in replies. Too much emphasis on whether or not someone has read the man pages or researched enough. A poster should be able to ask a trivial question without getting the third degree. Why is this forum here? Is this the last resort that someone has when they have a question? Why shouldn't this be the first place a person unfamiliar with OpenBSD ask a trivial question? Why be rude to someone who has asks a question about including a new OpenBSD feature that may have been asked before?

Here's something interesting I recently saw posted:

Quote:
Question 2 - I think I've encountered a couple of typos as well in the man pages (Forgotten where exactly). Is there a place to report those typos without trying to make people feel they've done something wrong?
I know exactly why that poster asked that question in that particular way. Do you? Some people on this forum are rude, and unfriendly and its really really unnecessary. True they may reply with valuable information in many posts, but in some, they take the time to post rude comments. I can't just say this is the only OpenBSD resource that I've come across treats people this way. Anyways, my reply that ended being turned into a post was just to bring to light some things that are going on that are pushing others away. Obviously mine own opinion.
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Old 25th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
I was just making the point that it was unnecessary to discourage others who ask questions. There's alot of unnecessary rudeness in replies. Too much emphasis on whether or not someone has read the man pages or researched enough. A poster should be able to ask a trivial question without getting the third degree. Why is this forum here?
Interesting points. As I understand it OpenBSD has a different focus compared to other operating systems. OpenBSD is developed/designed by developers *for* developers. If end users want to use OpenBSD that is fine too. OpenBSD is best suited for people who have some previous experience with Linux/BSD/Unix.
When I was a novice user back in 2002 starting out with Linux my feelings were hurt when an advanced user chided me for asking a question about supported NICs. I try to be gentle with new users. However, I understand the frustration that OpenBSD developers have with trivial questions, especially if the answer is thoroughly documented in the ample documentation. For me, as an OpenBSD user, I would much rather see my developers writing code more and answering trivial questions less. This forum is here to help end users. We expect that you will do some of your own leg work.
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Old 25th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
I know exactly why that poster asked that question in that particular way. Do you? Some people on this forum are rude, and unfriendly and its really really unnecessary. True they may reply with valuable information in many posts, but in some, they take the time to post rude comments. I can't just say this is the only OpenBSD resource that I've come across treats people this way. Anyways, my reply that ended being turned into a post was just to bring to light some things that are going on that are pushing others away. Obviously mine own opinion.
I'm going to post my answer to that question because I'm relatively certain you took issue with it based on your response to it.
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Originally Posted by ibara View Post
This is not a concern.
And to save others the trouble, your response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
Maybe you should rephrase that to "This is not a concern of mine". I doubt you speak on behalf of all the developers. If you do, my apologies.
The nicest way to say this is you read into that sentence what you wanted.
There simply isn't a concept of "without trying to make people feel they've done something wrong." If you find something that needs improvement, you report it (preferably with a diff). No one is going to feel as if they did something wrong. And if by some rare chance they do, that's not your problem.

The worst that's going to happen is it'll be explained to you why your diff is wrong and it won't get committed. Nothing worth getting upset over.

I am not prepared to waste someone's time. The best thing for montie to do in his case would be to read the code for the things he was looking for (as there's no way to know what information he considers important and should belong in a man page), write a diff (that we can commit), and not be worried for any reason about sending it off to a mailing list (tech@, in this case). Same if he found typos in man pages.
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Old 25th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azdps View Post
I was just making the point that it was unnecessary to discourage others who ask questions. There's alot of unnecessary rudeness in replies. Too much emphasis on whether or not someone has read the man pages or researched enough. A poster should be able to ask a trivial question without getting the third degree.
Unlike most Linux fora, BSD in general and OpenBSD in particular, have not abandoned the principle of self-reliance. People are expected to try to find the answer first, including searching the forum. So if a trivial question is the kind that is easy to find an answer to, such as in the first paragraph of the FAQ's installation guide, then a terse response might be given.

Quote:
Why is this forum here? Is this the last resort that someone has when they have a question?
Perhaps not the last, but as mentioned above, in OpenBSD's culture it is expected that a person will look at the documentation first. If unable to understand it or unable to find exactly what is needed, then ask a question. Pointing someone to the documentation where an answer can be found is not rude. It is helpful.

Quote:
Why be rude to someone who has asks a question about including a new OpenBSD feature that may have been asked before?
That depends on the feature being asked for does it not?
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Old 29th January 2015
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I'd quit assuming there's some guru around here. All you're looking for is someone who read the documentation you haven't or someone that has doped out the situation you're working on already.

To be perfectly fair the frustration is in response to a hostile world. A world which consistently screws up the primary goal of OpenBSD and then comes through barking orders, making demands and offering criticisms that generally don't hit the wall the dart board is on.

OpenBSD is, for all intents and purposes the good documented code listed in the following article.

http://gizmodo.com/programming-sucks...1570227192/all

If you wander in off the street, sit down for twenty minutes and start griping that things don't meet your standards, well you ought to expect to offend folks especially if your questions are met with reasonable examples and knowledgeable chatter.
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Old 29th January 2015
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Here's a link to a hand full of Gurus fumbling around for ~5 days without reading the clearly defined FAQ.

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8787

Clearly Buddha picks his nose.
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Old 30th January 2015
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I'll concede that, though I'm not a guru. Now, would you please show me in the FAQ where it says, if installing where you have other operating systems, just format the partition you intend to use for OpenBSD as an OpenBSD partition, then, during install, choose O?
Because I definitely missed that part.

Actually, as documentation is software, let's match mine against the OpenBSD documenters.

Take someone intelligent, with no OpenBSD experience, and show them the part about this in the FAQ then show them my page.

http://www.srobb.net/openbsdmultiboot.html

Then, give them a machine with Linux on it and some free disk space, and see which version of the doc--because you've said the answer is clearly in the FAQ--lets them get it done more easily.
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Old 30th January 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanGrimoire View Post
Here's a link to a hand full of Gurus fumbling around for ~5 days without reading the clearly defined FAQ.

http://daemonforums.org/showthread.php?t=8787
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this post. Odd stuff.
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Old 1st February 2015
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Well first off, when someone uses the word guru, I tend to think in terms of the classical definition rather than the slang term used within computer science.

That link was posted to demonstrate some folly in not reading the documentation, which had changed since I last read it. I laughed, nobody in that thread got offended, stated I was mocking them or otherwise was contributing adversely to the thread. And yes I doubt I would need more than the faq to get past most dual boot difficulties, because the faq clearly defines the risks involved. I'm sure the author of that page in the faq would feel a little riled at the criticisms offered in that thread. (because, not being a guru in the classical sense they are subject to ego) All that said, I found that thread very informative, entertaining, and useful. Above and beyond what one should expect. A short cut for some and a more thorough treatise for others, regarding dual-boot on OBSD.

In kung fu, these sorts of misgivings between student and teacher might lead to broken bones, the greater punishment being permanent dismissal. With a traditional spiritual Guru, what you get is conformance peer pressure to include excommunication. Yet here disciples/students cry about OBSD being tougher than *nix or people being "mean" - I say bullshit, do what you're told and if you can't state your case. This isn't Navy Seal acceptance for crying out loud. You're asked to read, be respectful and do work son. If that's not how you want to spend your time go somewhere else (feel free to come back when ready).

Don't be that fool at the temple steps crying that Deadly Eagle Wushu shouldn't use Eagle Claw because your hands hurt.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=there%27s+no+crying+in+baseball

Last edited by vanGrimoire; 1st February 2015 at 11:57 PM. Reason: spelling, flow
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Old 1st February 2015
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"Currently I'm trying to work out getting NSD and Unbound working right. "

And the question is?
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