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General software and network General OS-independent software and network questions, X11, MTA, routing, etc. |
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I've also heard that the display on one of the old macs made 1in about 72 pixels in length, but that's a bit before my time... And not related to Google Chrome.
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That's right, TerryP, and the pixels were square. That was the original Mac. (Not before my time!)
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Windows uses 72 dpi and this can be changed. I can't remember anything about the Mac, and I used to be reasonably well versed.
On the web, you should never use pt for sizing text. Most everything is done using ems, percent and px. And many will tell you, including me, not to use px either. If px makes your fonts huge, then there is inheritance going on that shouldn't be there. Which browser? |
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EDIT: Macs are designed for print. Windows is designed for the screen. So Macs are probably higher dpi due to graphics and fonts. One of the reasons why Macs are so popular in publishing.
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I might be an odd ball or is just a fact that whenever I create a web page, it's usually meant for reading not getting paid for... But I almost never screw with font sizes to begin with lol. Usuaully when I do change the font-size, it's with a keyword size (e.g. small, larger, etc) or with ems. Sometimes I'll inline a <h?> if know exactly what I want for a short passage of text, but I tend to avoid it. Since I believe that the web browsers default setting _should_ be set to something legible to a user, and if there is any reason to use a different size it ought to be realitive to that, and not my own opinions of legibility. I do hope, that Google Chrome gains the ability to force minimal font sizes, a suitable way of creating extensions by the time they make a complete release. Because the former is invaluable IMHO for controlling the view and constantly ctl++'ing is a pain, while the former is somewhat a fun part to learn ;-)
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. |
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> it's with a keyword size (e.g. small, larger, etc) or with ems.
The keywords I understand, but using ems or ens? My own opinion is that you really should learn to use points. The entire typesetting industry has standardized on that, and has used that for a very long time. Every phototypesetter in the old days had a clear plastic sheet with a standard font or two in point sizes from about 6 to 72. There was a point size scale, and a bunch of other stuff. You could use it to identify and make changes easily. Those typesetters also had a book, usually from Mergenthaler, that listed a few thousand fonts in various weights and point sizes. My ex was a phototypesetter when I met her (she ultimately became an attorney -- yuck!). That's where I learned all this stuff. And the horizontal space is leading ("ledding"); one gets used to talking about 10 on 12 or 11 on 14 (the former is a ten-point font size, with 12 point leading); different fonts have differing x-heights and descenders and ligatures. I know that the visual display is somewhat different, but that should map directly through the dpi. And using the standard terms makes groff and TeX a lot easier to understand. |
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Whoops. You're right. 96 is the default.
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Keywords aren't use by many developers because IE screws them up. |
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ens aren't available on the web. Internet Explorer screws up keywords in some situations which is why most of us don't use them either.
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UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. |
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Still, TerryP was talking about using ems (I didn't know ens weren't used). use of ems seems even worse than points. An em, in typography at least, is the width of the letter "m" in the font size and family used. So there are two variables in this, rather than just one (the point size). That seems like the wrong approach. Clearly I am not a web designer, though I am certain aware of the problem. I would have thought that there would be a means to identify the dpi and screen size in the initial negotiation with the web site. That would seem to be about the only way to get any hope of device-independent output, or at least a proper scaling of results (like two columns vs. three or four) for the particular display device. I see no reason why a web site on a cell phone or a 30" monitor should look the same. |
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I personally find this discussion intently interesting, but someone disrespectful of me to have (seemingly) hijacked drhowarddrfine's thread with it. For that I am sorry drhowarddrfine: even if you've joined us ;-)
If no one has any objections, especially the OP, I really think a Moderator should split most of the points/ems/px stuff off into a separate thread. ------ my reply I don't know about everyone, but I quite like the concept of a "Point" for print, it's fairly unique and to the point. Just like the word font is within its domain, unlike say using the millimetre to describe the dimensions of a letter on the page. When the document is meant for print-form: I usually think in points and generate either PDF or PS output from my .tex files. I almost never print them, but treat them as printer output. You could say tex output like digital paper. With a webpage, I try to focus on content and leave styles to later. Most of the stuff I do will downgrade to looking nice in lynx: both because I want it to and because I don't care if they look snazy or not, as long as I like the page itself. I typically tune the standard fonts in a web browser to match my tastes on a specific display and OS, an example might be: 12pt Terminus for mono-spaced text. If I just want text to generally be of a different proportion of size from the regular font-size, I often settle for the keyword sizes. As long as it doesn't break my layout and I'm not being paid for it, people can generally kiss my grits if their browser doesn't get it *just* right lol. If I want text to just be larger then normal, but have no idea what size the base font will be; then I go for smaller/larger etc. The em unit in CSS is relative to the current font size. So if I actually care how the text size comes out, I usually use em's because the computated value of N em should change if text changes from, say 10px to 16px in sice without my anticipation, it should still be N*size. My reference defines the a point as 1/72 inch, a pica of 12pt, and a pixel of 1 dot on the computer screen. If I wanted to be as precise as a dot on the computer screen in my font size, I would print the thing instead of using a web browser to view it on my screen !!! That's why I rarely use pt/px for webstuff, and why I usually don't muck with fonts a lot in HTML/CSS. And just for the record, the only time I've *ever* had to change a page because of wrong rendering from what was intended, was in IE7 on a very simple page ;-). I don't consider myself skilled in web page design and wouldn't want to be if it meant compromising my opinion that the web should be for all, not look sexy under very specific criteria that could change like a fart in the wind (nor do I want to go nuts trying to appease all in a balancing act, because if you try to appease everyone, you'll probably piss them all off imho!)
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My Journal Thou shalt check the array bounds of all strings (indeed, all arrays), for surely where thou typest ``foo'' someone someday shall type ``supercalifragilisticexpialidocious''. Last edited by TerryP; 9th September 2008 at 04:06 AM. |
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The point (no pun intended) is that if you wish to change the font size, change the font size based on its value, and not on something that depends on other variables. Quote:
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I too am interested in other opinions, but to me it seems that you need to code with some standard for font size. Points are as good as any, and it is the standard for print. Of course you need to do the dpi conversion, and I don't know what is the convention for that. But unless you start with something absolute, there is no way you can wind up with it at the end. It is the same sort of thing as color calibration. If your image is not calibrated to the standard, you have little hope of it being displayed or printed accurately on another device. |
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This is where ems come in. Ems, on the web, are not the same as in typography. 1em is equal to the current size of the current font, whatever that may be. So, in the body of a html document, if I set 'font-size:16px' then 1em=16px elsewhere. Now all my font sizes can be made relative to that. If I want a 12px paragraph, I would say 'font-size:.75em'. Setting 'font-size:1.5em' gives me...well...I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. Some developers will do things like set 'font-size:62.5%' in the body. This makes the reference 10px (16x.625=10). But now all em settings now equal pixel sizes. That is, 1.0em=10px; 1.5em=15px, etc. In some cases, people like to use percentages. Percent works well when you want the page to be "liquid" and resize according to screen size. So if someone shrinks a window, the containing elements will adjust accordingly and you can even make the font sizes adjust but you can imagine what reading problems there may be. |
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In any event, if an "em" is defined as the current point size, well, carry on. In my opinion that is silly. But my opinion does not matter in this. |
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No. You are!
Here's where it is in the standard. I know there's a discussion of it somewhere there and I have articles I've collected over the years but I'm too old to look them up. |
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I'm not arguing that what you describe is the standard. It is just very poor form to redefine existing terms into new ones. The committee should not have done that.
I'll grant that on-screen and on-paper displays require different approaches, but there is no reason why the terminology should differ for such fundamental definitions. |
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Yes, I understand. Just kidding. Provided a link to that in case anyone wanted to see it.
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For those who like Chrome for its speed compared to IE and Firefox, have you tried Dillo or NetSurf? Both are lightweight and have a spring in their step. NetSurf is currently more feature rich than Dillo (which is missing some important features).
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