Signal to noise ratio, what OpenBSD is and is not:

[tls]

What I have learned, and what I am observing:


First and foremost, exhaust your resources, your ability to read and formulate a solution will suprise you.


Yes this forum can be forgiven with the likes of jggimi and shep, which leads me to the book The Art of Unix Programming, read it, if you have any intention of taken your 'ideals' seriously.


Then if you have gotten that far, please dabble or contribute by buying some cd's or reading up on what mr, lucas has wrote - but please do me favor by reading the manual, people have contributed A lot up to this point and really - man pages are your friend, ultimately its just you and manpages in that foxhole, have some little dignity and read it, and possibly one day you might just have a nice beard to brag about.



If anything whatever you will learn or have learned here, please pass it on.

[ibara]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, nor any clue what prompted the post.
I do, however, think that reality would surprise you.

[Peter_APIIT]

His intention is to informed all forumer to read up the documentation rather than post question over here.

[sacerdos_daemonis]

But was the attitude necessary? I see ocicat removed the obscenities, which made the post obnoxiously rude. Second; is policing the board not the task of the people with administrative powers? Does the board need policing? If it does, it is necessary to swear at people?

[blackhole]

Originally Posted by sacerdos_daemonis

I see ocicat removed the obscenities

ocicat has been generous in not just deleting the whole thing. when it comes to "signal to noise", it's somewhat ironic that this thread is an example of the latter.

p.s. Let's not have the ideological claptrap here which infests the plethora of Linux fanboi forums.

Suggestion: delete thread

[bsd-keith]

I believe all members should report inappropriate posting to the mods, it helps them keep the boards user friendly in a timely manner.

[ibara]

Originally Posted by Peter_APIIT

His intention is to informed all forumer to read up the documentation rather than post question over here.

But isn't that literally the point of this forum?

[kpa]

Originally Posted by ibara

But isn't that literally the point of this forum?

No. The purpose of forums such as this is to intepret and clarify the documentation for people who don't possess the kind of technical understanding the writer(s) of the documentation had. Much of the documentation I've come across in any FOSS system is written by people who are no doubt brilliant but are basically writing it for themselves with no sense of what the actual audience for their writings is going to be years later.

[blackhole]

Originally Posted by kpa

No. The purpose of forums such as this is to intepret and clarify the documentation for people who don't possess the kind of technical understanding the writer(s) of the documentation had.

That is not exactly the 'purpose', but this is something which can happen in the course of a thread.

Originally Posted by kpa

Much of the documentation I've come across in any FOSS system is written by people who are no doubt brilliant but are basically writing it for themselves with no sense of what the actual audience for their writings is going to be years later.

I can't guess what "FOSS system[s]" you refer to there.

[kpa]

Originally Posted by cynwulf

That is not exactly the 'purpose', but this is something which can happen in the course of a thread.


I can't guess what "FOSS system[s]" you refer to there.

Yeah, maybe I phrased it badly but pretty much what you said.

I thought FOSS is a commonly known acronym by now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_a...ource_software

[ibara]

Originally Posted by kpa

No. The purpose of forums such as this is to intepret and clarify the documentation for people who don't possess the kind of technical understanding the writer(s) of the documentation had.

To bastardize Bateson: what's the difference that makes a difference?
I fail to see what's meaningful in your clarification.

There needs to be a space for people to ask questions without having read any manual pages. How else would you get someone to the point of reading them? That doesn't mean this forum should exclusively answer or even encourage such questions, but it has to be open to that eventuality.

I agree that such a space isn't tech@, but other than that I think people complaining that a forum targeting new people... offering help to new people... is more than a bit silly.

[ibara]

Furthermore, I disagree with the original formulation of being alone with man pages in the foxhole. That's just annoying American rugged individualism. There's nothing wrong with communal aid: in fact, it will get you farther, faster, than trying to go it alone.

Man pages are just one educational tool. An important one, no doubt. But not the only one.

[LeFrettchen]

I totally agree with you, ibara.

[rocket357]

Originally Posted by ibara

To bastardize Bateson: what's the difference that makes a difference?

This forum never ceases amazing me. What a perfect reference...well played, Ibara.

[scottro]

One nice thing about being old and having been married more than once is that insults just roll right off me. However, I've NEVER been flamed for saying I've read this man page and I don't get this part.

As for those who post questions before reading the man page, so what? If it's easy to figure out, point 'em to the man page or let someone else do it. If it's hard to figure out, help, then say, now that you have an idea, look at the man page and see if it's clearer.

I've not seen very much nastiness on these forums, ever. I've seen grouchiness, but not nastiness.

[Oko]

Originally Posted by scottro

One nice thing about being old and having been married more than once is that insults just roll right off me.

+1

[tls]

I appreciate all the feedback from this post, I usually pick my words wisely, so ocicat - thank you for removing my crudeness, also I appreciate all the feedback from you ibara and kpa and everyone else here.


Being able to Openly discuss opinions is what defines what being Open is.


Putting my 'americanism' and opinion aside yes I do see it how you see it, however, I feel and the whole point of the post was to not encourage a forum such as this to be the 1st and possibly last solution to ones problem and possibly ones ideals, I simply wish to encourage people to put some effort in - the reward is far greater.

[ibara]

At the risk of being exposed as painfully unaware of what's going on in these forums (and I admit I do not read the FreeBSD and NetBSD sections at all): is this actually a problem?

I'm not sure I see people doing this here, but I might not be looking where the problem lies.

[tls]

Originally Posted by ibara

At the risk of being exposed as painfully unaware of what's going on in these forums (and I admit I do not read the FreeBSD and NetBSD sections at all): is this actually a problem?

I'm not sure I see people doing this here, but I might not be looking where the problem lies.

there was a small injection of funds from the point and click crowd recently, not knocking em, bill gates is a wonderful person.


i just relate to theo more.


hence my opinion, and the influx of curios ones.


I've studied BSD, the work ethic, the methodology, from the distant + common knowledge it has shared and continues to share.


Like with any BSD, OpenBSD is not just any operating system like some kick ass app or an OS like Microsoft:


OpenBSD is a frame of mind.

[ibara]

Originally Posted by tls

OpenBSD is a frame of mind.

Sure. You're not going to have to convince me of that.
I just don't see this place as OpenBSD. It's something else. That's not a bad thing.

Not to necessarily condone the comparison, but I don't think it's any problem if this place is the "Ubuntu forums" of *BSD. Sure, the people asking questions there aren't going to be contributing to the lkml at the same time but some of the people answering might be.

The goal is to get the people asking questions to that point, in my opinion. And I'm totally fine with the person who doesn't even know there are man pages to read coming here to ask a question. That person might just become the next great developer. It doesn't hurt to be kind. There's a right way to say, "Hey, we don't go blindly asking questions without doing research in this community. You should read such-and-such man pages and if you still have questions, come back and ask, demonstrating that you've read and tried what the man pages say." And, more importantly, there's a right time to say it. The time is never the first question. For some people, it may not even be the fiftieth question. When in doubt, it doesn't hurt to be kind. And when in doubt, it doesn't hurt to defer answering whether or not it is that time to someone else with more experience (jggimi or one of the admins, for example).

I've actually had multiple occasions of people thanking me for being a developer and approachable (as if the two are somehow mutually exclusive). I like that, and I want to create more devs like that.

It's partially why NYC*BUG and CDBUG, both of which I'm heavily involved in, are so successful. It gets people into the *BSD culture and the *BSD way of life. If this forum accomplishes that, then all is worth it.