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Old 14th August 2020
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Default Improving source code

https://github.com/openbsd/src/commi...f46073dc75139b
I like those new non-offencive words.
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Old 14th August 2020
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"client" will be offensive one day too, when the crypto-Marxists take over.
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Old 14th August 2020
shywren shywren is offline
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I'm not sure if the OP was being sarcastic or not, but I am glad to see these changes. The mailing lists sometimes leave me with the impression that the project might be a toxic place behind the scenes, and gestures like this certainly make an encouraging statement about the developers' values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdOp View Post
"client" will be offensive one day too, when the crypto-Marxists take over.
Please don't. It's not "Marxist" to use inclusive language and listen to the concerns of marginalised groups, and saying so is a crypto-fascist dogwhistle. Please keep this kind of toxicity out of this space.
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Old 14th August 2020
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Thank you for expressing your opinion.
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Old 14th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shywren View Post
I am glad to see these changes
+1

Thanks for sharing this bsdun, it brightened my day
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Old 14th August 2020
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"White list" and "black list" are now offensive. So that means a statement like "Life is not black and white, but various shades of grey" is offensive too everyone? It offends white and black people, because it mentions two offensive colours and offends everyone else because it implies brown, yellow and red people are grey. Thank heaves someone is cleaning up programming!

Now we an remove other offensive terms.
Like "compact disc". Compact is insulting to short people.
"Hard-drive" must be abolished, because "hard" is a sexual reference.
And the horrible sexist language used for parts of hardware like plugs having male and female connections!
Now that computer processes no longer have master and slave functions, we must now abolish the term "power on the computer", because the word power connotes having authority over someone else.

I hope I do not get banned from the forum for this racist and sexist post.
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Old 14th August 2020
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I really do not understand the big deal with this issue, I have seen this mentioned in many places.

For me, "denylist" makes far more sense than "blacklist", when I first head of blacklist many many years ago I really had no idea what it meant. But I probably would have went with "allowlist" instead of "listed"

The same with slave/client. Far more descriptive when people first enter tech.
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Old 14th August 2020
shywren shywren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacerdos_daemonis View Post
"White list" and "black list" are now offensive. So that means a statement like "Life is not black and white, but various shades of grey" is offensive too everyone? It offends white and black people, because it mentions two offensive colours and offends everyone else because it implies brown, yellow and red people are grey. Thank heaves someone is cleaning up programming!

Now we an remove other offensive terms.
Like "compact disc". Compact is insulting to short people.
"Hard-drive" must be abolished, because "hard" is a sexual reference.
And the horrible sexist language used for parts of hardware like plugs having male and female connections!
Now that computer processes no longer have master and slave functions, we must now abolish the term "power on the computer", because the word power connotes having authority over someone else.

I hope I do not get banned from the forum for this racist and sexist post.
If you want to criticise a decision like this, please at least take the time to criticise the arguments that people are actually making, and not hyperbolic exaggerations that no one would stand behind.

As I understand it, there are two reasons that switches away from "whitelist" and "blacklist" are being made in this and other projects. The first is that many people just find these names unintuitive. "allowlist" and "denylist" do what they say on the tin, which can help make configuring and using the software/OS more intuitive for less experienced users (or even those experienced ones who may get the two terms confused sometimes). The second is not that the words "black" and "white" are inherently offensive, but that "bad" things go on the "blacklist" and "good" things go on the "whitelist." Black bad, white good. Sure, in the abstract this might not seem all that troubling, but we don't live in the abstract. Against the backdrop of centuries of white hegemony at the repeated and costly expense of racialised people, this can come off as yet another dig against non-whites, especially in a field so snow-white as tech, and even moreso if one already finds the two terms unintuitive, per my statement above.

Granted, this is something of a token change; it's not like making these changes "solves racism," or something, but it's a small acknowledgement that, let's be honest, doesn't hurt anyone. It makes some people more comfortable at zero cost to anyone else; maybe even a small benefit.

If changing "blacklist" and "whitelist" is fairly humdrum and may ultimately not signify much on its own, changing "Master" and "slave" is a different story. The two words are inextricably linked to centuries of chattel slavery, especially in the US, arguably the tech center of the world. Again, in the abstract, "Master" and "slave" may just seem like descriptive words that can help a user to understand what's going on with hardware or software. But then so are "master" and "client," or "server" and "client," or "parent" and "child," etc. And none of these latter ones are saddled with the context of centuries of some of the most horrendous human rights abuses ever recorded.

In short, please at least read people's arguments in good faith (or know what they are in the first place). No one's coming to stricken the words "black," "white," "grey," "compact," "male," "female," "power," or "hard" from computing. People are just looking to make computing less hostile to more people --- something that's apparently sorely needed if some of the comments in this thread are any indication.
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Old 14th August 2020
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If I were Theo I'd replace all occurences of master and slave in the source tree with pimp and whore and sit back and watch the fireworks unfold.

Seriously, you'll find s.o. who's offended about anything if you just look long enough. If you're going to mollycoddle them all you'll end up doing nothing but mollycoddling. I think it's a waste of developer time. It also reminds me just a wee bit too much of the RecDep department in the Ministry of Truth where Winston Smith, the main character in George Orwell's novel Nineteeneightyfour, works at, for me to be comfortable with such a development. But then I don't have a say on what the devs spend their time on.

Either way, that's my opinion. If anyone doesn't like it: tough titties.

Just one more thing: Irregardless on which side of the fence you're on remember one thing: this is just the beginning. Some of the more recent developments in this area are ideas like racism in math or oppresion through grammar. In the end it's going to get really, really ugly.
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Old 15th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvgit View Post
If I were Theo I'd replace all occurences of master and slave in the source tree with pimp and whore and sit back and watch the fireworks unfold.
t would be a very bad idea if Theo did what you suggest. I kid you not, it would be the end of OpenBSD.

There are very powerful interests behind this latest revolution coming out of America. They can de-platform Theo from the Internet, cut his funding from the corporations, cut his access to services like PayPal, cut off credit cards and banking services, so he can't raise money from his supporters. They have de-platformed a lot of people that disagree with them already, and they are doing it at an increased pace leading up to the November elections.

Also keep in mind that Theo is not an American citizen. He lives in Canada where the citizens have no rights vs the government. In fact, Theo may have even less rights than a Canadian peasant, depending on his immigration status. So if Theo displeases the Canadian authorities they can kick him out of the country, and he will have no legal recourse.

Duck Duck Go. "Companies supporting BLM": There was 270 last I heard, and they are the who's who of the Fortune 500. Amazon, IBM, Apple, IKEA, Lego, Lexus, L’Oreal Paris, Nike, Levi, Mercedes Benz, McDonald's, Mozilla, Pfizer, Pepsi, Porche, Pornhub, Youtube, RedHat, Virgin Records, Warner Bros, etc, etc.

We are talking interests representing so much wealth, they could pay off national debts. What can Theo and his rag-tag band of volunteers do against all that, even if they wanted to? What you suggest Theo do is suicide.

Are you familiar with the story of Passover?

https://www.biblehub.com/exodus/12-13.htm

"Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt."

Think about it.
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Old 16th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shywren View Post
Please don't. It's not "Marxist" to use inclusive language and listen to the concerns of marginalised groups, and saying so is a crypto-fascist dogwhistle. Please keep this kind of toxicity out of this space.
I don't believe that any person felt marginalized by this sort of language (feel free to give me examples, twitter need not apply they feel marginalized by anything and everything), I only heard some very left leaning people sperg out about it which most weren't even part of these oh so marginalized communities. They're chasing solutions to non existent social problems.
But what this is, is a nice solution to help people out of the background understand what the hell is going on. Let a normie read this and they will just scratch their heads in infinite confusion:
"Master has killed child"
> Isn't this missing "process" at the end?
Yes, but I've seen this exact wording before. Can't fully remember where though.

Myself I wouldn't be okay with these changes if they didn't offer anything practical. But this offers almost nothing practical - you might say. To those in the field? Hell no, but to my mum? Hell yeah, she was scared seeing a similar piece of information from her computer.
"Bronzu! I think I have a virus, it seems to be killing children! What is going on!?"
"It's special wording used in software development mum..."
"What sick stuff have you gotten yourself into young man!?"
Yeah, it was weird explaining it all.

Just don't do word policing, change wording only if it helps with understanding matters.
> But muh hate speech
Fighting that will just eat you alive, you can only lose this one with the internet.
> But inclusive spaces, and niceness
You can't force anyone but yourself to be nice, so spread niceness by being the nice one first. Also aholes are like germs, the more tackle your body the more you are immune to them. Just try not to become one.

tl;dr
Be the person you want others to be, don't force ideals on them or you will have to face unforeseen consequences.
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Old 16th August 2020
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The problem I see with this is that there is no well-defined limit up to where name changing is acceptable.

For example, some people may feel offended by the binary-gender-based terminology of connectors (male plug vs female plug), or by the use of parent and child in tree structures, or by some kinds of hierarchical-related terminology (such as client vs server, or master vs slave).

There is no way to decide which terminology is intrinsically offensive and which one just displeases the Twitter.
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Old 16th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillbush View Post
There is no way to decide which terminology is intrinsically offensive and which one just displeases the Twitter.
It's not really about upsetting Twitter followers (or the various corporations mentioned in Prevet's post), it's more about offering an inclusive and welcoming environment to any contributors — do we really want to potentially exclude genius coders who just happen to be non-white or non-binary-gendered?
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Old 16th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Head_on_a_Stick View Post
Do we really want to potentially exclude genius coders who just happen to be non-white or non-binary-gendered?
Of course we do not, but they shouldn't be at the forefront either. Remember that this is about software development and people shouldn't be judged in these situations by their political and/or ethnic background but by their sole capabilities and what they can offer. Too bad many businesses nowadays don't care about competence and would rather fill in their diversity quota.
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Old 16th August 2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronzu View Post
Too bad many businesses nowadays don't care about competence and would rather fill in their diversity quota.
As some say go woke and go broke.
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Old 16th August 2020
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I'd like to add a couple of things at this point.

First to the OP, bsdun: my brief remark precipitated discussion which possibly may have gone into directions you didn't intend with your post. If that is the case I sincerely apologise. I am also grateful to the other posters for being thoughtful and respectful.

My remark, which being very brief may have been a bit "cryptic', was couched in wry fatalistic humour. The first part (about "client" becoming offensive one day) was basically about where this kind of thing is inevitably going. (fvgit for one touched on some of that.)

As to my mention of Marxism, my thought was that someone could wonder "How could 'client' possibly be offensive?" I'm no expert on Marxism, but it seemed to me that a true Marxist would see a client as a participant in free enterprise capitalism, and so would object to it. So it was being used as a very specific example. Yes, there is a certain Imperial Individual 1 who currently uses Marxist allegations as a generalized dog-whistle in a grand political scheme. I was not using it that way.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Generally speaking I think that naming convention should be consistent across the whole project. So it means the same naming convention in every part of kernel and user space libraries etc should be used. It is a lot of work to discuss and prepare new naming convention then change the actual code. Given current trend among SJW people* that considers hard work as an aspects of whiteness I don't really see some woke newcomer developer coming to take on that work. It is probably easier to include some trigger warnings in the comment at the beginning of every source code file.

*Example: Smithsonian African American museum located in Washington, D.C.
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