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Old 25th August 2016
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fvgit fvgit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdOp View Post
xwd(1) is the classic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocicat View Post
Excellent, thanks a lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
I am missing the point it seems? You're posting lists of dependencies and citing larger numbers of those as some kind of problem?
You do and I am. If I'm striving for a lean install that isn't riddled with countless of 3rd party extra software packages and which may ultimately be less trustworthy than the code that's in base, then, yes, I see those larger numbers of dependencies as a problem. At least to me that makes sense.

This 'outdated' system is currently my only spare machine. I can play with it, throw everything at it and break it, re-install till the cows come home without disrupting my daily workflow.
Plus, being a thrifty kind of person I'd like to see if I can still go shopping in a dusty old Prius instead of a shiny new lard-ass SUV.
It's also a way to get up to speed again in things OpenBSD, since I've been a bit out of the loop recently. It would be cool in the end if I could create my own one-size-fits-all siteXX.tgz that I can just pop in and have at least a basic environment that fits most of my needs, www browsing included. Ok, there's a sparc clone in the attic that's probably hopeless, but you get my idea. Back to topic:

At first I was just surprised re:midori, but as my experimentation slowly seems to turn into a low-end hardware browser shoot out I'm just running along with it. It wasn't planned I'm just documenting my findings. Mainly for myself, but if anyone else gains any useful knowledge out of it, all the better. Even if only for shock value :P. At the moment I'm running my initial assessment: documenting software bloat. It helps categorising the candidates for a more in-depth testing in round two.

Among the funny things you come across is this: if you turn javascript off, ebay always blocks your search results with an opaque overlay message, telling you that you have to turn javascript on to proceed. You can scroll your results list up and down underneath, but you can't click on the individual items. Dillo apparently doesn't yet support this overlay technique. Instead it places the message at the upper end of your results page and allows you to happily browse ebay without any javascript at all.

Xombrero:
Code:
uirks-2.197: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:pcre-8.38: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libiconv-1.14p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gettext-0.19.7: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libffi-3.2.1p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libelf-0.8.13p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:bzip2-1.0.6p7: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:python-2.7.11: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:glib2-2.46.2p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:jpeg-9a: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:tiff-4.0.6p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:png-1.6.20: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:xz-5.2.2p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libxml-2.9.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:shared-mime-info-1.5: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:jasper-1.900.1p4: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gdk-pixbuf-2.32.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:hicolor-icon-theme-0.15: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gtk-update-icon-cache-3.18.7: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libcroco-0.6.11: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:graphite2-1.3.5: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:lzo2-2.09: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:cairo-1.14.6: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:harfbuzz-1.1.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:pango-1.38.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:librsvg-2.40.13: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:adwaita-icon-theme-3.18.0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:dbus-1.10.6v0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:at-spi2-core-2.18.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:atk-2.18.0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:at-spi2-atk-2.18.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:desktop-file-utils-0.22p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:dconf-0.24.0p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libgpg-error-1.21: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libgcrypt-1.6.5: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libxslt-1.1.28p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:icu4c-56.1p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:harfbuzz-icu-1.1.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:dbus-glib-0.106v0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:aspell-0.60.6.1p2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:enchant-1.6.0p2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:giflib-5.1.2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libwebp-0.4.4: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libsecret-0.18.4: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gtk+3-3.18.7: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gcc-libs-4.9.3p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gsettings-desktop-schemas-3.18.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gmp-5.0.2p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libnettle-3.2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libtasn1-4.7: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:p11-kit-0.22.1p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gnutls-3.3.21: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libproxy-0.4.12p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:glib2-networking-2.46.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libsoup-2.52.2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gdbm-1.11p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libdaemon-0.14p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:dbus-daemon-launch-helper-1.10.6: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:avahi-0.6.31p23: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:json-glib-1.0.4: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:geoclue2-2.4.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gstreamer1-1.6.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:cdparanoia-3.a9.8p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libogg-1.3.2p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:tremor-20120410p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libtheora-1.1.1p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libarchive-3.1.2p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libusb1-1.0.20: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libusb-compat-0.1.5p0: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:npth-1.2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libassuan-2.1.1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:pinentry-0.9.6p3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libksba-1.3.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gnupg-2.1.9: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gcr-3.18.0p1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:libvorbis-1.3.5: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:orc-0.4.24: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gvfs-1.26.2: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:iso-codes-3.64: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gstreamer1-plugins-base-1.6.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:gstreamer1-plugins-libav-1.6.3: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1:webkit-gtk3-2.4.9p4v1: ok
xombrero-1.6.4v1: ok
Chromium:
Code:
quirks-2.197: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libiconv-1.14p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:xz-5.2.2p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libxml-2.9.3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gettext-0.19.7: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libelf-0.8.13p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:pcre-8.38: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libffi-3.2.1p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:bzip2-1.0.6p7: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:python-2.7.11: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:glib2-2.46.2p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:dbus-1.10.6v0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:dbus-glib-0.106v0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gconf2-3.2.6p7: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:xdg-utils-1.1.1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:droid-fonts-0.1p1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gcc-libs-4.9.3p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:shared-mime-info-1.5: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:jpeg-9a: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:tiff-4.0.6p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:jasper-1.900.1p4: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:png-1.6.20: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gdk-pixbuf-2.32.3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:hicolor-icon-theme-0.15: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gtk-update-icon-cache-3.18.7: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libgpg-error-1.21: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libgcrypt-1.6.5: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libxslt-1.1.28p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:nspr-4.11: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:nss-3.21.1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libexif-0.6.21p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:graphite2-1.3.5: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:lzo2-2.09: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:cairo-1.14.6: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:harfbuzz-1.1.3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:pango-1.38.1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:atk-2.18.0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libcroco-0.6.11: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:librsvg-2.40.13: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gnome-icon-theme-3.12.0p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gnome-icon-theme-symbolic-3.12.0p2: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gtk+2-2.24.29: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libgnome-keyring-3.12.0p2: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libexecinfo-0.2p5v0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:desktop-file-utils-0.22p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:dbus-daemon-launch-helper-1.10.6: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gdbm-1.11p0: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libdaemon-0.14p1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:avahi-0.6.31p23: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gmp-5.0.2p3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libnettle-3.2: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:libtasn1-4.7: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:p11-kit-0.22.1p1: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:gnutls-3.3.21: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116:cups-libs-2.1.3: ok
chromium-48.0.2564.116: ok
Both xombrero and chromium as well as midori-gtk3 all coredump before even drawing a window on the screen. Frankly I don't expect Firefox to be any different, but we'll see. So the herd is quickly thinning out. Interestingly midori, the gtk2 version, didn't crash immediately, although it reacted very slowly. It even took several seconds from clicking the Settings icon until the Settings window rendered in the middle of the screen, without any external webpage loaded(!). Whereas Conkeror, also gtk2, could almost be considered usable inbetween.
I'll have to see if I can do achieve any gtk-tuning, as Shep suggested.

With Opera out of the tree this leaves otter-browser, surf, firefox and iridium. Any others?

I don't suppose there's a way of visualizing dependecy trees? Like a dependecy-tree-graph plotter of some sorts? Probably as likely as a modern browser that runs on ancient hardware, I guess. But I thought I'd ask anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdOp View Post
For example, there is no way I should need broadband and a quad-core to go check my bank balance, and move money from my checking account to credit card. Sledgehammer, meet peanut. Yet that is exactly the point we're at the cusp of imminently. As someone who doesn't care much about youtube and eBay, it frustrates me too. I realize that resistance is largely futile, in the long run.
I agree wholeheartedly, the last sentence included. If you believe in the multiverse theory, there's probably an alternate universe out there somewhere with super lean, super fast and super modern browsers. So all hope is not lost.
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Old 25th August 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvgit View Post
I don't suppose there's a way of visualizing dependecy trees?...
The ports tree can tell you all about dependencies. You may have missed the use of the ports tree in post number 9 above. I used it to count dependencies for you, so that you didn't have to post page after page of them here.

Had I not shovelled the output of the full-run-depends target into wc(1), you would have seen a tsort(1)-compatible package list for each port.

For more on what the ports tree make(1) targets can do for you, see the ports(7) and bsd.port.mk(5) man pages. There's a great deal of information available.
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Old 25th August 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvgit
With Opera out of the tree this leaves otter-browser, surf, firefox and iridium. Any others?
If you're still using 5.9 as per the initial post there is seamonkey for that (but not for 6.0 or snapshots it seems).
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Old 25th August 2016
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Quote:
Both xombrero and chromium as well as midori-gtk3 all coredump before even drawing a window on the screen.
Part of this is due to the extremely conservative memory and file limits that are set in a stock OpenBSD install.

See this thread for more details.
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Old 29th August 2016
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IMO NetSurf is the most promising lightweight browser long‐term.

It has good licensing: GPLv2 core, MIT libraries. (Compare to Dillo’s GPLv3+.)

There’s active work on improving JavaScript and DOM support.

The biggest problem with NetSurf is its GTK frontend. That brings in a huge pile of dependencies; NetSurf itself depends only on a handful of packages. The GTK frontend also has some unavoidable problems, like aborting in low‐memory situations.

Luckily, NetSurf is not tied to any particular frontend. Besides the GTK frontend, there are Cocoa, Haiku, AmigaOS, and SDL frontends. (If I recall correctly, the bug mentioned earlier than this thread where text overlaps is limited to GTK/Cairo, and doesn’t affect other frontends.)

There’s also ongoing work to abstract the browser core into a library to make new frontends even easier to develop. One project I hope to get around to is trying to make a libagar frontend. This would remove the need for all those GTK sub‐dependencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
Part of this is due to the extremely conservative memory and file limits that are set in a stock OpenBSD install.

See this thread for more details.
The default staff limits have been increased since that thread, from 512 MB on amd64 to 1536 MB. That helps the typical user experience quite a bit.
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Old 29th August 2016
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The xombrero brower seems to no longer be under development.


https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/45232/

See my post and the one under it. It may still work, but doesn't seem to be getting updates (unless whoever maintains it for OpenBSD is doing so, which I didn't check.)
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Old 29th August 2016
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I use an old i386 to follow -current. In the code base leading up to OpenBSD 6.0, Xombrero was working fine. I'm planning on using xombrero in OpenBSD for 6 more months.

Xombrero's developers worked for Conformal and coded several original projects. Sadly, Conformal's web site no longer exists.
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Old 29th August 2016
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Looks like Conformal is on Github.

https://github.com/conformal

Last edited by jggimi; 29th August 2016 at 07:31 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 29th August 2016
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Quote:
HISTORY
xombrero was inspired by vimprobable2 and the bloat in other UNIX web
browsers.

AUTHORS
xombrero was written by Marco Peereboom <marco@peereboom.us>, Stevan
Andjelkovic <stevan@student.chalmers.se>, Edd Barrett <vext01@gmail.com>,
Todd T. Fries <todd@fries.net>, Raphael Graf <r@undefined.ch>, Michal
Mazurek <akfaew@jasminek.net>, and Josh Rickmar <jrick@devio.us>.
Of the developers at conformal/people only jrick remains. I wonder if Edd Barrett is still involved? I'll email.
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Old 29th August 2016
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Thanks a lot for all the input so far! I mean it.

I've tried three more.

1) otter-browser
Let the numbers speak for themselves: 100 packages total, plus 6 new system groups & users respectively.
This is one whale of an otter. Truly impressive. Unfortunately it coredumped right away, but being gtk3-based I was already expecting that. So no surprise there. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that a single browser can command the installation of one hundred packages.

Now on to the surprises:

2) Firefox
Despite a coredump I ran into, Firefox actually runs. Something I didn't really anticipate after having read several discussions about it in the past. Although 'running' may be something of an overstatement, it's more of a crawl. I've dubbed it the Zen-Browser. You need to be in an absolutely serene state of mind to use it on an older system such as mine. Even a click on any of the preference pane items has a response time of at least six seconds or more. You have no idea how long six seconds can actually feel until you've tried it.

Afterwards when I read on misc@ that even people with 16gigs of ram can run into problems with the occasional coredump, it made me feel totally bad-ass to operate this beast with my puny 256* megs of memory.
It should be noted that Firefox seems to have switched to gtk3 during the run-up to 6.0. This may mean no more zen-browsing on older machines then.

[* down to 256 after re-shuffling some components, but I may be able to max out at 768 for nil in a couple of weeks]

3) Surf
Surf is extremely unstable. It wouldn't even open daemonforums (immediate coredump). Still, when it works it not only works quite nicely but also pretty fast. I wouldn't say it's as fast as dillo but it didn't seem that far behind. It's almost like a glimpse of what could be possible, if developers were more mindful of limited resource scenarios.
My guess is, that the older webkit may be just less ressource hungry(?). I'll have to compare this to Surf2 which supposedly is just Surf with a newer version of webkit under the hood.

I still have a few more on my list before I embark on round 2. With all the suggestions so far it'll probably take some time before the next update.


Cheers everybody!
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Old 30th August 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
Of the developers at conformal/people only jrick remains. I wonder if Edd Barrett is still involved? I'll email.
I've been informed by Josh that xombrero is dead and you shouldn't take GitHub organization lists as truth.
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Old 30th August 2016
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Thanks for the confirmation. Too bad, it had nice potential.
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Old 30th August 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvgit View Post
It should be noted that Firefox seems to have switched to gtk3 during the run-up to 6.0.
This may not make a huge difference as firefox isn't built on gtk anyway - it just uses the themes.

Firefox is slow on my old machine with Athlon 64 X2 2.6Ghz and 2GB of RAM. It takes forever to start up, there are occasional coredumps and unless I use script blocking, it's unusable on javascript heavy pages where there's lots of ads.

I also have an old 1.2GHz netbook with 1GB of RAM and that's also underpowered when it comes to modern browsers - the experience is painful enough to just shutdown and use something else.

I've tried surf, netsfurf and midori in the past and it's either lack of javacript support or consistent crashes which have resulted in me giving up.

(and it's not just an OpenBSD thing - I have installed various Linuxes and it's not much better.)

Mozilla and Chromium based browsers have moved on to take advantage of modern hardware and Firefox in particular will easily use your 256MB of RAM for storing the current browsing session (cache).
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Old 31st August 2016
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fvgit may be interested in a new port of www/netsurf/netsurf-fb which was just made available for testing. It is netsurf without GTK, and has a chain of 34 run dependencies.
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Old 1st September 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jggimi View Post
fvgit may be interested in a new port of www/netsurf/netsurf-fb which was just made available for testing. It is netsurf without GTK, and has a chain of 34 run dependencies.
It's been committed now, and should be available on the -current package mirrors within a week or so.

Full disclosure: the port was made due to this thread!
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I'm not sure if "counting dependencies" is a good way to count the "code footprint". Both Chromium and Firefox are huge, and include some components that other "light weight" browsers outsource to a dependency.
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Old 3rd September 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
I'm not sure if "counting dependencies" is a good way to count the "code footprint". Both Chromium and Firefox are huge, and include some components that other "light weight" browsers outsource to a dependency.
Compile time might be a better metric. Last time I tried, NetSurf took five minutes, Firefox took about an hour, and Chrome took about nearly three hours (and then failed to link), with make -j4 on a quad‐core amd64.
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Old 5th September 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jggimi View Post
fvgit may be interested in a new port of www/netsurf/netsurf-fb which was just made available for testing. It is netsurf without GTK, and has a chain of 34 run dependencies.
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Originally Posted by backrow View Post
It's been committed now, and should be available on the -current package mirrors within a week or so.

Full disclosure: the port was made due to this thread!
Just did a very quick'n'dirty install on a 6.0-current snapshot. At first pkg_add bailed out due to a library mismatch (bad major): it was expecting xcb 3.2 instead of the installed 4.0. I tricked it by doing a ln -s libxcb.so.4.0 libxcb.so.3.2, then it worked.

As for netsurf-fb, it's really great! Quick installation, very fast startup, and fairly quick rendering. No comparison with the other version of Netsurf that I tested earlier on 5.9. I wasn't able to log into daemonforums, maybe that doesn't work yet. But I'll need to play around with it a bit more and give it some stress testing. Just wanted to give you my first impressions.

A great addition. Most excellent work, backrow! Thank you.
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Old 5th September 2016
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Originally Posted by fvgit View Post
As for netsurf-fb, it's really great! Quick installation, very fast startup, and fairly quick rendering. No comparison with the other version of Netsurf that I tested earlier on 5.9. I wasn't able to log into daemonforums, maybe that doesn't work yet. But I'll need to play around with it a bit more and give it some stress testing. Just wanted to give you my first impressions.
Really? I was able to log into DaemonForums just fine with netsurf-fb.
In fact, this post was made using netsurf-fb, so can confirm that the forums works just fine (but I already knew it would, since it works fine with the gtk-frontended netsurf).
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Old 5th September 2016
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Really? I was able to log into DaemonForums just fine with netsurf-fb.
Strange, daemonforums wouldn't let me in. I got the message about wrong username/password combination and the failed login countdown. I suspected it might be an unresolved issue with cookie handling or sth. like that and didn't investigate further.

If it works for you I must obviously be doing sth. wrong. Did you perform any special configuration steps, any command line options?
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