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I also forgot about /sys dir here, we have /proc for all the "kernel stuff" why do we need another one? One big M.E.S.S
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religions, worst damnation of mankind "If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened." Linus Torvalds Linux is not UNIX! Face it! It is not an insult. It is fact: GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”. vermaden's: links resources deviantart spreadbsd |
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I've heard there is a mechanism for limiting resource usage via jails (in fact it's at http://wiki.freebsd.org/JailResourceLimits ), though I haven't looked into it very much. It's a shame that we don't have a whole lot more available. NetBSD supports XEN, so you could use NetBSD host and go from there. XEN support is supposed to be coming soon to FreeBSD. As I'm working towards my SCSA for Solaris 10, I'm looking more at Solaris Zones (though I don't have Solaris running on any of my servers here at home... hmm... if only I can convince the wife to let me buy a new box).
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I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by fleeing the scene of the accident! |
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You want more people to use BSD? Forget about! Or, if you want to take it the other way round - if you want xBSD to prevail as an elitist OS just for the "enlightened" followers of the only (self-)righteous way, then carry on this way. And be sure - M$ & Co. will laugh at you while you remain in your "splendid isolation" with your noses held high! Again - sorry for my harsh words - but such an arrogant swagger is really annoying. |
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-Tim |
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Well, going back to your earlier post, about being ignored, reminds me of the old saying, You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think--errm, no, that's not right, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink, whatever. Or, like Marcus Aurelius wrote, in 167 AD, If you've done a good deed, isn't that reward enough? Why are you expecting gratitude as well.
It happens all the time. Think of the old cartoon, a woman asking her husband why he's still up--he's typing away frantically, saying, "Someone got something wrong on the Internet." I try to give newcomer friendly answers and put up pages when it seems a good idea. For example, I've become, through necessity, somewhat of an expert on the Atheros AR5007EG card in Linux. I've seen people post about their 5006 card, just put a link to my page, watched the thread go on as they can't install ndiswrapper, and then, 10 posts later, realize it's an AR5007EG, as I'd mentioned, but just don't worry about it. I don't get upset. Maybe it's age. As was said, Ubuntu's a bad choice, as it attracts so many who are just bored or fed up with Windows, even in the server section. My admiration goes to the experienced on those forums who keep their patiences with the newcomers. They have one way of thinking, and that includes GUIs on servers. You'd probably get more appreciation on the Fedora forums (as well as people who will ignore it or snidely say, Yes, but I want a GUI.) Personally, as I think I said somewhere in this thread, I really don't understand why RH makes their distribution so gnome-centric. As for defending your use of Linux and VMware, as you say, it's mission critical, and you're not doing yourself or your customers a favor trying something that you don't know as well. As my work these days is CentOS centric, I'm actually planning to move my server stuff from my aging BSD box to a CentOS box, but am trying to figure out the closest thing to a jail. I'll probably wind up going with Vserver. (It's the same idea, it's not complete virtualization in the sense of VMware or VirtualBox, more of a super chroot.) So, I wouldn't even waste time worrying about those who ignore your pearls of wisdom. There are more important things to worry about, such as your customers and paying the rent. It's nice to be appreciated, but, especially with Ubuntu, it's a different sort of mndset. It doesn't even mean they are wrong. I suspect that those who ignore you aren't working with real production machines, or the first part of their post would have consisted of explanations as to why they want X on a server, since it usually isn't considered best practice. |
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Ok, seriously. Who cares? If people want to use a GUI on their server, why should we care? They use a GUI, we use a commandline, and we're all friends. If people ask for help here, they will generally get "commandline answers", and on Ubuntu forums they will generally get "GUI answers" ... It's different, but not better or worse IMO ...
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UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. |
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You DO have a point here. I wasn't being rabid about it, just "suggesting" it may take less resources among other things. they could always find out for themselves, but they may end up blaming Linux in general instead of realizing they should have been at run level 3. -Tim |
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"The" Linux community handles server-questions as good or bad as "the" xBSD community. You will find beginners with a small handmade homeserver for holiday-pictures or -films and you will find professionals who have to run the servers of a company. And the latter ones, I guess, would prefer specialized OS's, like Red Hat Enterprise, SuSe Enterprise or Solaris. With these operating systems you buy professional support, liability and warranty. And you won't need to discuss a problem in a forum with 16 years old kids, who feel geeky about running their small homeservers with a fancy non-windos OS. Last edited by nihonto; 13th May 2008 at 11:52 AM. |
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-Tim |
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After reading through what is on Canonical's site I came upon this gem in the security section of the features of the Server Edition:
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-Tim |
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I was all prepared to go into a rant about how making a comment on your peception of things is viewed as elitist, is a problem rooted in the politically correct/orwellian/new speak world when a qoute from Marcus Aurelius arose and restored my faith in humanity...
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"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." -Philip K. Dick |
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Scottro brings up points that hit home with me.
<rant> I evangelize two things that are important to me, and have spent too much time trying to show people the error of their ways. Mo$t of the$e people are noob$ or, mo$tly, another $ort. But, thi$ other $ort: Is just too frustrating to deal with. They drink from a firehose and are untrainable. It gets me all upset and, as of just last night, I gave up. I deleted all links to such forums, resigned from one board I mod, and this, now, is the only place I check on every day. Some people like to watch the pretty, blinking lights and some of us need to get the job done the best way. </rant> |
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My main point was and is, that it doesn't depend on the system you are using, but on your training and professionalism - maybe it's even a question of apprenticeship? But I don't think it's a question of using Linux or xBSD (or even M$ or Solaris). |
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I just wanted to point out that I work with many Linux guys... and none of them have GUIs on their servers. I think we should not blame a whole community for only a percentage of it's users, nor should you say all BSD users all elitist because a few are.
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"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." |
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God has a long, straggly beard for a reason, ya' know.
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I think that, no matter how you group people together, you'll always have a wide range of personalities within any given group. It cannot be avoided, because people are people. Sure, within any given group, one personality type may be more represented than in the general population, but that's the nature of the beast. You'll always have the experts, the newbies, the bigots, the impatient, the teachers, the disciples, the willfully ignorant, the knowledge-hungry, the loquatious, the lurkers, the braggarts, the humble, etc.. Generally speaking, in a community, like attracts like. Or, as the old saying goes, Birds of a feather flock together.
Ultimately, it is wisest not to assume that one person, or even one group, is a fair representation of the whole. The posters on the Ubuntu forums are not necessarily representative of Ubuntu users as a whole, just as the posters on this forum are not representative of BSD users as a whole.
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That's nothing a couple o' pints wouldn't fix. |
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I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything like that with my first post. But now I get what you're saying. I thought you were overall talking about Ubuntu (desktop version), but now that you mentioned that you were in the server community in Ubuntu I agree with what you're saying. There isn't much need for GUI when dealing with servers (my opinion at least).
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I suspect--though of course, I don't know--that probably, some of the folks in that Ubuntu server section are again, kids who just want to do something different--wow, server, that's even cooler.
This isn't a putdown of the Ubuntu community--as I said in my first post on this thread, I think we owe them gratitude for their numbers and enthusiasm, which almost certainly begin to make hardware and software manufacturers think a little more about opensource support. You'll note how busy the Ubuntu forums are. Using CentOS as contrast, as it's really more, despite the GUI aspects, more of a server O/S, there's a lot less traffic and most of the questions are either intelligent ones or ignored. Conversely, on Ubuntu forums, I once got into a discussion of samurai vs. ninja and who would win. (The probable answer is that if one studies Japanese history, the lines were far more blurred than they are in video games and movies, so there's no real answer.) One doesn't often, if ever, find such discussion on CentOS forums--people are too busy and are using it for production. There's probably no such discussion on Debian mailing lists either--they're too serious--the CentOS people have a sense of humor, but are busy. |
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