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Old 22nd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coppermine View Post
These discussions have been seen in bsdforums at least few times. Although the time passes, but some close to heart features as flash, WLAN, USB automounting are still not the shiniest side of FreeBSD.

The people talking that FreeBSD is server OS are right. In my opinion. If you are just willing to learn new things, you will discover that you can avoid significant pain by avoiding either broken hardware or just trying to run everything (!) on one OS or box. For example, I have stopped to try running BSD on my laptop. It is time Consuming! Note the capital letter. Instead, I have found Ubuntu or even Mac OS X better suited for this.

Yes, the FreeBSD hasn't received much attention from software developer side as linux has, but it is rock solid! These are not just loud words. The surveys (I found the Netcraft's) says that most hacks ever done by percent are done on linux-driven boxes! Even the Microsoft is behind. The BSDs are one of the strongest ... however, also they are secure as you make them. The operating system and on the other side - service/daemon/application/(whatever) security are NOT equal!!!
No OS except BSD can accept tremendous loads received on very responsible web servers. Not linux, not IIS ... ))) but BSD!

Yes, you guessed! I am FreeBSD fan... if FreeBSD will keep basic traditions as true UNIX, it will stay my only server OS.
What's so difficult about automounting on FreeBSD? What about USB support? USB support on my end is great, and automounting with Hald and Dbus is as good as it was on Linux. WLAN is a problem for all Unixes, other than Mac OS X.

FreeBSD is time consuming for those who don't need or appreciate the level of customization that it offers. How often have you needed to do a fresh install of FreeBSD on a box? How often has it broken? I've used over 20 Linux distributions, and Linux is much the same in respect to Windows that installs of distributions that offer unique package management systems break over time. What say you to Gentoo or Slackware? FreeBSD may be time-consuming at first to setup for the desktop, but it's easy to maintain, and the lack of maintenance required saves you time in the long run. That's true for all Unixes besides Linux. They're all relatively self-maintaining.

By the way, I do agree with you that if you want BSD Unix on a laptop easily, then you might as well get a MacBook or Pro and run Mac OS X on it. You can then stick MacPorts on it, install X11, and you'll be good to go.
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Old 23rd August 2008
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I agree with coppermine here to a point. I hear people talking about using *BSD as a desktop or worse yet even advocating it for everyone and I just shake my head. I am a FBSD junkie. I just at some point have to say this is not what this product does best. For servers, IMHO there is nothing better. I run all my web stuff and backend on either FBSD or OBSD. For my desktop, I agree with ninjatux, I use a macbook pro. When I am using a workstation I just want things to work and work well. To me, it's just a matter of using the right product for the right job. <flame suit on>

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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ephemera View Post
I completely agree with that.
I'll add a third voice to that. what's happening here is we are getting a lot of folks from the Linux camp who just barely discovered Linux coming to *BSD thinking it's just another OS that wants to be all things to all people. IMHO it isn't . It's a server OS and a damn good one, in fact in my opinion the best you can get without getting proprietory. It's not intended to be a desktop OS although some people so a pretty good job of making it one just like some people make Windows an OK server OS

Personally, I don't have one *BSD box that has X even loaded. I don't care about flash or Open Source graphics drivers. I care about whether my web site will scale to 100 million hits per month or that I don't need to reboot to install most anything other than kernel updates. I care that I won't be hacked every 5 minutes because there is a billion lines of code in the OS that no one knows what they do.

People coming here from Linux should understand that some of us think of Linux as they think of Windows. Every time I load Linux and open top I am reminded how bloated and complex it has become. *BSD is simple, small, and elegant.

With regard to the virtualization, that is one feature I sorely need. ESXi does not run on a lot of hardware - NEW hardware. I just built a dual quad core server that will not run ESXi so I have no choice but to run Vnware server on Linux. I'm not happy about it, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpetsmoker View Post
Well, you can do three things:

o Stop looking and the OS and start looking at the applications, the OS isn't *that* important, applications are, and many applications for UNIX just plain suck.

o Stop complaining about FreeBSD that ``must'' do X, or ``should'' implement feature Y and start working on it, either by programming, recruiting, raising funds, whatever ... Just sitting and complaining isn't constructive and a waste of time.

o If you're not prepared to start working on it, then suck it up or use another OS.

There is a point where helpful criticism stops, the flash player issues comes back again and again and again and again, if we were to put all the flash threads on the various forums/lists in one place I fear it would collapse in on itself and start to absorb light.
The MacOSX is the best desktop operating system around and above all it is pure UNIX under the hood... The problem is that the Apple hardware is very expensive and at this period I have not enough money to buy it (as thousands of other users).
Until then, I will stick on the FreeBSD as a desktop (and suck it up eventually), anyways I found working with FreeBSD very pleasing.

The flash player issue is the major missing thing that stops FreeBSD from growing it's popularity on the desktop market, that's why there are thousands posts worldwide on every forum, plus this one.
If I had strong knowledge of C,C++ or whatever needed language, I could put my effort on this. Now the only thing I can do is to donate a few bucks for this purpose.

I have to say that sharing some times your opinions about some obvious issues - IMHO - Ι don't think it is that harmful. Anyways, I am not intending to touch this subject again.

Last edited by harisman; 23rd August 2008 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Corrections..
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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harisman View Post
The MacOSX is the best desktop operating system around and above all it is pure UNIX under the hood... The problem is that the Apple hardware is very expensive
Who forces You to use it on Apple hardware, it wokrs flawlessly on a regular PC, you just need modified/patched ISO from torrents, I used it on Intel Q6600 + Intel 965G and everything worked very well.

You just need box with CPU that supports SSE3, You may check that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...icroprocessors

Just check here hour hardware here:
http://osx86project.org

... and get ISO image here:
http://torrents.to
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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
What's so difficult about automounting on FreeBSD? What about USB support? USB support on my end is great, and automounting with Hald and Dbus is as good as it was on Linux. WLAN is a problem for all Unixes, other than Mac OS X.

FreeBSD is time consuming for those who don't need or appreciate the level of customization that it offers. How often have you needed to do a fresh install of FreeBSD on a box? How often has it broken? I've used over 20 Linux distributions, and Linux is much the same in respect to Windows that installs of distributions that offer unique package management systems break over time. What say you to Gentoo or Slackware? FreeBSD may be time-consuming at first to setup for the desktop, but it's easy to maintain, and the lack of maintenance required saves you time in the long run. That's true for all Unixes besides Linux. They're all relatively self-maintaining.

By the way, I do agree with you that if you want BSD Unix on a laptop easily, then you might as well get a MacBook or Pro and run Mac OS X on it. You can then stick MacPorts on it, install X11, and you'll be good to go.
Yes, I agree with you that it is not difficult to manage automounting working. But I found all this installation procedure for desktop to be TO TIME CONSUMING!
What about FreeBSD reinstallations. I have made reinstalls only in the beginning when I didn't know how to fix on or other broken feature made by me. Currently I have several server and router installations and I didn't have single case when I should reinstall all from scratch.

I have found FreeBSD to be easy to manage and understand in most aspects. This feeling is getting stronger as the years of experience passes.
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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
Who forces You to use it on Apple hardware, it wokrs flawlessly on a regular PC, you just need modified/patched ISO from torrents, I used it on Intel Q6600 + Intel 965G and everything worked very well.

You just need box with CPU that supports SSE3, You may check that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...icroprocessors

Just check here hour hardware here:
http://osx86project.org

... and get ISO image here:
http://torrents.to
This is legally questionable advice, it violates their licence agreement.. their software, their rules.

I would be careful what you advocate.. or at least put a little disclaimer at the bottom of your posts.
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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSDfan666 View Post
This is legally questionable advice, it violates their licence agreement.. their software, their rules.

I would be careful what you advocate.. or at least put a little disclaimer at the bottom of your posts.
Well it could be for "testing" purposes or "research".

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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windependence View Post
I agree with coppermine here to a point. I hear people talking about using *BSD as a desktop or worse yet even advocating it for everyone and I just shake my head. I am a FBSD junkie. I just at some point have to say this is not what this product does best. For servers, IMHO there is nothing better. I run all my web stuff and backend on either FBSD or OBSD. For my desktop, I agree with ninjatux, I use a macbook pro. When I am using a workstation I just want things to work and work well. To me, it's just a matter of using the right product for the right job. <flame suit on>

-Tim
I don't really advocate it to anyone, but people know what I use. People know I'm a Unix junky and that BSD is my favorite family of Unix. Having used Slackware and Gentoo for quite a while, FreeBSD seems like a treat because of its correctly implemented automation features in Ports. Slackware takes longer to setup than FreeBSD does on a desktop if you do a minimal install. Gentoo is only slightly easier compared to Slackware. Both of those distributions are used on the desktop, but FreeBSD takes less time than both in maintenance and setup. Yeah, I agree with right tool for the right job notion, but I think the BSDs are multipurpose operating systems. It can't get any better than that.

Would you say that PC-BSD makes a good desktop?
Would you say the same for OpenSolaris (assuming it's in a usable state)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by windependence View Post
People coming here from Linux should understand that some of us think of Linux as they think of Windows. Every time I load Linux and open top I am reminded how bloated and complex it has become. *BSD is simple, small, and elegant.

With regard to the virtualization, that is one feature I sorely need. ESXi does not run on a lot of hardware - NEW hardware. I just built a dual quad core server that will not run ESXi so I have no choice but to run Vnware server on Linux. I'm not happy about it, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

-Tim
I came from Linux, and I don't like to use it anymore, if I don't have to. Plus, it's really pathetic that Linux has become the dominant platform for Unix(-like) application development because with all its GNU proprietary bits, porting to other traditional Unixes becomes a pain.

Virtualzation is coming according to the mailing lists. First DomU will be completed eventually leading to Dom0 support for Xen. There is discussion of having the FreeBSD Foundation fund the VirtualBox developer team to have it ported over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post
Who forces You to use it on Apple hardware, it wokrs flawlessly on a regular PC, you just need modified/patched ISO from torrents, I used it on Intel Q6600 + Intel 965G and everything worked very well.

You just need box with CPU that supports SSE3, You may check that here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...icroprocessors

Just check here hour hardware here:
http://osx86project.org

... and get ISO image here:
http://torrents.to
I wouldn't advocate that, and I wouldn't expect it to work on most PCs. You might have gotten lucky. Advocating it for use on and using it on a non-Mac breaks the EULA. Furthermore, it's impractical for most people to try running Mac OS X on their systems because its hardware support is quite poor, but that doesn't matter, since Macs are a closed platform. Mac OS X does not have to support every piece of hardware out there.
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Old 23rd August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
using it on a non-Mac breaks the EULA
I never care about ANY EULA.

Also there was similar case in history, when IBM wanted DOS to be used only on their hardware in EULA, and they fail at the court and have to allow use of it on ANY computer.

Similar case has recently started between Psystar and Mac OS X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatux View Post
it's impractical for most people to try running Mac OS X on their systems because its hardware support is quite poor, but that doesn't matter, since Macs are a closed platform. Mac OS X does not have to support every piece of hardware out there.
Apple hardware is nothing more then x86 hardware (Intel/AMD/nVidia) with EFI chip instead of BIOS. Everything else is the same, well maybe keyboard backlight is true Apple hardware.

About drivers, you forgot that Mac OS X uses Darwin kernel and userspace, which is Open Source, so you can write a module to support anything you want (and they actually do that).
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Old 23rd August 2008
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I'm well aware of what you can and cannot do. I use an open source driver for my printer on Mac OS X, but that's a CUPS driver. The XNU kernel does not support most commodity hardware, which makes Mac OS X impractical to run on most PCs.
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Last edited by ninjatux; 23rd August 2008 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 25th August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vermaden View Post

Apple hardware is nothing more then x86 hardware (Intel/AMD/nVidia) with EFI chip instead of BIOS. Everything else is the same, well maybe keyboard backlight is true Apple hardware.

About drivers, you forgot that Mac OS X uses Darwin kernel and userspace, which is Open Source, so you can write a module to support anything you want (and they actually do that).
I've tried a number of these images and none of them seem to support installing to SCSI drives - which is all I have. It boots and starts the installer just fine, but it can't find a hard drive.
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Old 25th August 2008
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@roddierod

Ii will not work for sure on all x86 hardware, but you can buy one that will work great with Mac OS X by half or even less the money you will have to pay Apple for the same.

Just curious, what SCSI controller you use mate?
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Old 25th August 2008
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LSI U320 it's build into my motherboard, Tyan S2895 which is listed as working but I could find no one that tried the SCSI control.

It has one IDE control and 2 SATA, but I don't have a spare IDE drive. I do have a SATA but that didn't show up either.
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Old 25th August 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roddierod View Post
LSI U320 it's build into my motherboard, Tyan S2895 which is listed as working but I could find no one that tried the SCSI control.

It has one IDE control and 2 SATA, but I don't have a spare IDE drive. I do have a SATA but that didn't show up either.
I have heard that Mac Pro is using SuperMicro motherboards, so using chipsets that SuperMicro use can help here, I must check some time what Mac Pro uses.

Here are first tracks:
http://www.insanelymac.com/lofiversi...hp/t23896.html
http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.p...7&#entry834427
http://forums.macnn.com/65/mac-pro-a...o-motherboard/

Generally googling for mac pro motherboard seems to gave best results.
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Old 25th August 2008
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Getting back on topic... I think that FreeBSD can work great on a desktop (and/or laptop), depending on what you are using it for. If you want games and Flash, then it is obviously not your best choice.

But for me, as a developer, I really only want tcsh; compilers/interpreters for Java, C/C++, and Perl; emacs; NetBeans; pdf and chm viewers; and Firefox; and mplayer. FreeBSD has all of that covered.

The best part is that I can use a simplistic window manager (fvwm) and have my system run extremely fast because I'm not running tons of unwanted processes in the background.

My reason for choosing FreeBSD as a desktop/laptop over a Linux or Windows is that it is really forcing me to learn exactly what is going on inside of my computer, and I have almost absolute control over EVERYTHING!

Last edited by TomAmundsen; 25th August 2008 at 08:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by harisman View Post
We are talking about just a f** player after all !!! How much money are needed for this??...
Well, in order port the flash player, we would need the flash player source code. I don't see us (legally) getting the flash player source code without purchasing adobe.
Current market capitalization is $23Bn. I'll chip in a few dollars, if you are up for it.
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Old 27th August 2008
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Well, in order port the flash player, we would need the flash player source code. I don't see us (legally) getting the flash player source code without purchasing adobe.
Current market capitalization is $23Bn. I'll chip in a few dollars, if you are up for it.
The FreeBSD Foundation could fund Adobe as Sun did/does for the Solaris port. It all comes down to how much money the Foundation has. Currently, there's ongoing discussions on the mailing lists about funding Sun for a VirtualBox port. I've found only one discussion of porting Flash; most people seem to be content with the current state of Flash and are looking forward to Flash 9 on 8.0R (Flash 9 works rather well in the 8-CURRENT branch where Linuxulator is at 2.6.16 by default and has more features). I think that sound virtualization (Xen and Virtualbox) support is more urgent than Flash support. Some people may want Flash, but I doubt even vast majority of people who use FreeBSD as a desktop want Flash support. Our best bets with respect to Flash is swfdec and gnash. It's best for F/OSS to support those in the long-run too. (By the way, I don't care about Flash.)
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Yes, I agree that improvements in gnash or swfdec are the way to go.
The problem with going the fund-adobe-to-do-it way is that we could get flash support as good as linux- I run ubuntu amd64 on this notebook, and I have given up on adobe's flash, as it regularly hangs the browser. I use swfdec when I need flash, and, although it regularly doesn't work, at least it doesn't bring the browser down.

Of course, if we could only make flash just go away...! The only place flash provides anything positive is with youtube, and even that could be better done just streaming video data.
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Old 27th August 2008
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Actually, there is a working flash player for FreeBSD ... And yes, it's from Adobe ... From http://thebackbutton.com/blog/73/64-...player-exists/ :

Quote:
I just watched Tinic from the Flash Player team demo two 64bit versions of Flash Player 10 here at FlashForward. One on Unbunu Linux and the other running on FreeBSD. Tinic also showed a 32bit version of the FreeBSD player. At this point however, there if no solid plan for release.
And at http://www.freebsdnews.net/2008/08/2...-flash-player/ I found:

Quote:
The following is what I got back from somebody close the development of Flash for FreeBSD:

“there’s absolutely a working version that one of the Flash Development Team compiled”

It will probably take another couple of months before anything will be available publicly
And it would seem the technical aspect of porting flash to FreeBSD is minimal, from http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/f...er/005479.html :

Quote:
've been talking with the Flash Product Manager and head engineer for
Flash regarding this.
Let's combine efforts and see if we can get this done. Porting it
isn't the problem yet but getting Adobe to agree that it should be
ported is.

Matt Olander
CTO, iXsystems
While I personally don't care much for flash player (It's off by default on my Windows systems) it useful at times, but I know lots of people who list the lack of a reasonable working flash player as their #1 reason for not using FreeBSD on their desktop systems.

You may remember that previously in this thread I said that FreeBSD is primarily a server OS that just happens to function as a (excellent) desktop system, which is true, but I would like to point out that this doesn't mean we should totally *ignore* any desktop-specific development, or dismiss them, I meant that this should not be the focus of the development.
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