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Old 18th May 2008
shep shep is offline
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Default Package Updates for OpenBSD 4.2 and 4.3

I noticed for OpenBSD 4.2 and 4.3 that package updates are linked to
http://www.openbsd.org/pkg-stable.html
Which is actually the link for 4.1 package updates. Given the number of security and bug fixes in Mozilla Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey I am wondering why package updates points to say SeaMonkey 1.14 while OpenBSD 4.3 installs SeaMonkey 1.18 and does not have 1.19 available?

The OpenBSD FAQ tends to push packages over ports but I wonder why something as large and frequently used as a browser is not aggressively updated?

Anyone have any insight into this?
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Old 18th May 2008
ocicat ocicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
The OpenBSD FAQ tends to push packages over ports but I wonder why something as large and frequently used as a browser is not aggressively updated?
Work on ported applications to OpenBSD is always done to -current first. The third-party Ports Tracker indicates that seamonkey-1.1.9 was checked into CVS in April -- apparently too late to make it into the 4.3-release:

http://openports.se/www/seamonkey

Note that 1.1.9 is available to -current users now.

Given personnel restraints, pushing updates down into the -release or -stable branches is no longer done. Perhaps if sufficient funds or donations become available, this issue can be revisited, but it is not feasible at this point given both the number of people who work on the packages/ports system & the six-month release cycle. If you wish to communicate with the port maintainer, you can find who to contact at the above link, or if you have the ports tree installed, you can find the same information at:
Code:
$ cd /usr/ports/www/seamonkey
$ make show=MAINTAINER
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Old 6th June 2008
shep shep is offline
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I previously ran OpenBSD 4.1 and did not mind manually updating when a security update was released for a package and am familiar with portsnap in FreeBSD. If I were to try an run a "-current" machine would it have to be with ports rather than packages? I think I can pull down a current tree with cvs but was wondering if OpenBSD has a portupgrade or portsmanger tool or other way to update installed packages to "-current"
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Old 6th June 2008
ocicat ocicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
If I were to try an run a "-current" machine would it have to be with ports rather than packages?
Packages for -current can be found at pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/packages/<arch>. Because not all applications are compiled into packages, you may have to resort to building some yourself.
Quote:
I think I can pull down a current tree with cvs but was wondering if OpenBSD has a portupgrade or portsmanger tool or other way to update installed packages to "-current"
See the manpage for pkg_add(1) for discussion on the -u switch. Note the differences with -r too.

Be aware that you will not be able to upgrade a -release or -stable system directly to -current. See the table in Section 5.1 of the FAQ for more information on what path can be taken:

http://openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Flavors

Information on using anonymous CVS can be found at:

http://openbsd.org/anoncvs.html

More information on updating packages can be found in Section 15.2.6 of the FAQ:

http://openbsd.org/faq/faq15.html#PkgUpdate

Last edited by ocicat; 6th June 2008 at 03:33 AM. Reason: corrected path to -current packages
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Old 6th June 2008
shep shep is offline
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Thanks for the links. It looks like I could set PKG_PATH to "snapshots" and use the pkg_add -u switch but will I need to update more than the installed packages (the base system and x-windows) to avoid breaking the system? In Slackware I tend to run about 280 packages on an XFCE desktop.

Any suggestions on how to setup and maintain a system as I did in OBSD 4.1? Basically when the mozilla team suggests that all users update to x.x.xx with the latest security updates and a popup windows tells me a new update is available I would like to update that package or know that it is not an issue in OBSD.

Off topic, but I wonder about the wisdom of abandoning package updates in -release. Granted Slackware only has to worry about i386 but some how a one man show finds time to provide security updates all the way back to the 8.1 release (about 6 years worth). OBSD just supports the last 2 releases spanning at most 1 and 1/2 years. I'm not suggesting all packages be updated - just those with security implications - after all security is OpenBSD's claim to fame.

Last edited by shep; 6th June 2008 at 04:30 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 6th June 2008
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Since the announcement that the Project was no longer maintaining -stable packages due to resource constraints (17 archs X 4400+ ports = 74800+ packages), the impact of updating -stable packages, and how to manage them, has been a regular, ongoing discussion on the misc@ and ports@ mailing lists. Some have volunteered limited resources, some have argued methodologies, some have tested various techniques. This discussion continues in contemporary threads there. To date, no formal decision to reinstate the practice has been decided.

Feel free to join in, just be sure to read the archives first if you don't want your head handed to you. And it may be handed to you anyway, if you are unfamiliar with the prevailing cultural netiquette of the OpenBSD mailing lists.

Keep these things in mind:
  • We are not OpenBSD Project members, here. Nothing said on this forum will influence Project policy.
  • The goals of the Project do not include users, except for public access to source code. See www.openbsd.org/goals.html. The Project exists by and for its members: the ~90 developers. Any benefits we users receive are because of their efforts for themselves.
  • The project funding efforts include -releases. But these efforts are to provide financial support of goals, not the other way around.
  • The project develops and tests new function on -current, and that is where all developers (and many users) live. They build (and test) patches for -release and -release minus one only when the patch is deemed necessary, and where the scope of the change permits it. The patches are added to -stable, and if important enough, to the errata web pages.

Last edited by jggimi; 6th June 2008 at 06:01 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 6th June 2008
ocicat ocicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
...but will I need to update more than the installed packages (the base system and x-windows) to avoid breaking the system?
Yes. Again, look at the table in Section 5.1 of the FAQ. There is no upgrade path from 4.1-release, 4.2-release, or 4.3-release to -current. You will need to do a fresh install of a recent snapshot first.
Quote:
Basically when the mozilla team suggests that all users update to x.x.xx with the latest security updates and a popup windows tells me a new update is available I would like to update that package or know that it is not an issue in OBSD.
The OpenBSD ports team will study whatever fixes have been announced & port these changes to -current as time permits. Whenever time comes for the six-month release cycle, whatever the latest version which has been vetted will be made part of -release. Note that this means that if a change is released near the time the CVS tree is tagged for the next release, this does not mean that the latest will always make it into -release. The OpenBSD project trys to vet ports & fixes before they are encorporated into -release.

If you are wanting to closely watch what gets checked in, watch the CVS tree:

http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvswe...zilla-firefox/

Also, you can watch the Ports Tracker Website which displays recent check-in activity as well:

http://openports.se/
Quote:
Off topic, but I wonder about the wisdom of abandoning package updates in -release.
As I recall, -release rarely sees package updates, as this would be the motivation for migrating to -stable. As it is now, -release & -stable see updates every six months at the next release cycle.

As for your comment on wisdom, the reality is that the OpenBSD project does not have the resources to spend on updating ports for all flavors and maintain the quality of -current & ensuing releases. The latter is considered to be more important to the goals of the project.
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Old 6th June 2008
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OpenBSD has no portupgrade or portmanager because pkg_add has both the -u (update) and -r(replace) switches backed in, from stock thanks to Mark Espie.

The way OpenBSD install ports is to first check if a relevant package exists in the PKGPATH, backup the old package, build the binary package, then only install/upgrades said application via the newly built package.
So, even when you install from source, you actually pkg_add a package.
Further, if a newer package version is found, do nothing (neither compile nor install) if the package has a higher version than the one of the ports tree.

Not saying it is fool-proof (fools are so inventive!) but a real cpu time saver.
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Old 6th June 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocicat View Post
...There is no upgrade path from 4.1-release, 4.2-release, or 4.3-release to -current....
No formal path, true. But it is possible to upgrade from the most recent -release to -current.

It requires an upgrade to the latest snapshot (starting with formal -release to -release upgrades, if necessary), and then carefully managing all critical architectural changes outlined in the Following -current FAQ, and also requires including all the additional architectural changes in /etc and /var. This last can be augmented by using the new sysmerge(8) tool, or the older mergemaster port. I suppose one could carefully examine CVS logs, and make manual edits or use sdiff(1), but some method for examining and making all changes in /etc and /var is necessary.

Once that's done, the admin can proceed to building -current, or, upgrade from snapshot to snapshot, as many do. My laptops I upgrade from snap to snap, my servers run -current.

Is a fresh install easier? That would depend on the complexity of the configurations, and the extent of the administrator's technical skills.
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Old 16th October 2009
shep shep is offline
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Another question along the line of having more recent packages in OpenBSD.
The new NetBSD pkgsrc, which I understand can be bootstrap'd to OpenBSD is available.

I'm thinking about doing a core OpenBSD install on a ViaC3 machine (NetBSD is difficult to install on this particular cpu) and then trying the new NetBSD pkgsrc. My initial thought is I should use the version of Xorg that comes with pkgsrc in my quest for a lightweight desktop. FreeBSD gives me an interupt storms with my atheros and ralink wireless cards otherwise it would probably be the best choice

My question is if this is a realistic way to go? Is it more a gleam in the pkgsrc developers eye or does it really work in practice?
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Old 16th October 2009
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OpenBSD developers do not support pkgsrc.

http://marc.info/?t=125481703600002&r=1&w=2

I cannot recommend using the NetBSD port of Xorg either.. OpenBSD has it's own X port called Xenocara, which includes local security changes.

Why did you revive this old thread? are you still using 4.3/4.3? if so.. they are unsupported, 4.6 is due out next month.
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Old 16th October 2009
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Quote:
Why did you revive this old thread? are you still using 4.3/4.3?
Firefox and Seamonkey packages in 4.6-release/stable do not include recent security updates from the Mozilla foundation. The updates are present in the NetBSD pkgsrc-2009Q3. The issue of having security updates in packages outside the core install is ongoing at the time of this post.
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Old 16th October 2009
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A better solution is -current. I believe it has better support than pkgsrc on OpenBSD. With pkgsrc, you are dependent on the NetBSD tree, and responsible for dealing with library and libtool and dependency issues on-your-own, without any support. -Current is much easier to deal with. You install snapshot packages, when available and syncronizable, and build from ports, otherwise. If you have a problem with a -current port, you can report it to the maintainer or to ports@. With pkgsrc, you have nowhere to go.
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Old 17th October 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
Another question along the line of having more recent packages in OpenBSD. The new NetBSD pkgsrc, which I understand can be bootstrap'd to OpenBSD is available.
I was probably the last person to successfully bootstrap pkgsrc on OpenBSD.
I did that for education purposes. It took me half day of hunting for bugs
on pkgsrc mailing list and fixing them to do that. Pkgsrc is not reliable on any platforms other than NetBSD and DragonFly. You can safely bet that
any application which requires X to run will fail to compile or fail to run after compilation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
I'm thinking about doing a core OpenBSD install on a ViaC3 machine (NetBSD is difficult to install on this particular cpu) and then trying the new NetBSD pkgsrc. My initial thought is I should use the version of Xorg that comes with pkgsrc in my quest for a lightweight desktop.
Where do you come with ideas like that? Running X on ViaC3 machine. Using OpenBSD with pkgsrc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
FreeBSD gives me an interupt storms with my atheros and ralink wireless cards otherwise it would probably be the best choice
Why would exactly FreeBSD be the best choice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
My question is if this is a realistic way to go? Is it more a gleam in the pkgsrc developers eye or does it really work in practice?
NO, absolutely NOT!!! Pkgsrc doesn't work in practice on anything else except NetBSD and DragonFly BSD. It is completely untested. The last time
anybody from pkgsrc bootstraped pkgsrc on OpenBSD was probably around OpenBSD 3.4 or something like that so more than 5 years ago. You can also trace on DragonFly mailing list how much effort was involved in making pkgsrc really working on DragonFly. pkgsrc is relatively poorly documented and poorly tested even on NetBSD.

Last edited by Oko; 17th October 2009 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 17th October 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep View Post
Firefox and Seamonkey packages in 4.6-release/stable do not include recent security updates from the Mozilla foundation. The updates are present in the NetBSD pkgsrc-2009Q3. The issue of having security updates in packages outside the core install is ongoing at the time of this post.
OpenBSD desktop related ports tree is actually in better shape than pkgsrc.
I will go as far as to claim that OpenBSD ports are in much better shape than FreeBSD ports tree. You will achieve far more by politely asking people
on ports@openbsd for patches which will enable you to compile the latest Firefox on 4.6. Sometimes people hold those patches because they are not tested enough to be merged to stable.

I personally run the latest Firefox on 4.5 stable on this particular computer.
Code:
$ uname -a
OpenBSD oko.bagdala.net 4.5 GENERIC.MP#0 i386
$ ls /var/db/pkg | grep firefox*
mozilla-firefox-3.0.14p1
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Old 17th October 2009
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Quote:
Where do you come with ideas like that? Running X on ViaC3 machine. Using OpenBSD with pkgsrc
.

Reading the NetBSD documentation on pkgsrc.
Quote:
Why would exactly FreeBSD be the best choice?
I'm not sure I indicated it was the best choice. I am doing this in part to gain experience with the various BSD's and I am using old and not particulary powerful hardware to do it with. I am not trying to start a flame war on which BSD is best although my sense is that each BSD has it's merits and matching those merits to use (lightweight desktop) and hardware (ViaC3) I would not think to be an unreasonable thought.

Quote:
A better solution is -current.
Quote:
NO, absolutely NOT!!! Pkgsrc doesn't work in practice on anything else except NetBSD and DragonFly BSD. It is completely untested.
This is what I was looking for. I'm trying to setup current and running cvs as I type this.
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